no prob. you should try some snatches next :) both great conditioning tools.

I love how some of use on this forum have been doing shit for years and posted on them exhaustively but nobody takes it seriously until Dan John or Mike Robertson 'suddenly' discover it years later. It's so gratifying.

This is why so many people just don't bother any longer. Swings are like three years ago. Great but not exactly news.

http://www.bodybuilding.net/personal...html#post37693

http://www.bodybuilding.net/personal...html#post37710

You learned these before I thought. They are not that complicated. I know it was over two years ago. Me and Dan have both posted extensively on these.

I'm not sure what attack the zipper means but if it's what I think it is they it's going to promote flexion at the upper back. Also, why should you need to "shove" a heavy weight behind you when the swing back is "pulling" it behind you and all you need to do is accept the pull while controlling the hips and back? That's over-coaching in my book.

You've got not time to speak of to reverse the kettlebell or dumbbell. Any concious thought your are trying to give to silly shit like "shoving it" is only going to hang you up. While you should be doing it, quite naturally, you're thinking about artificial things like 'shoving it' and all that does is 1. help you not, young padawan and 2.) interrupt the flow of the movement.

On snatches why should anuj take a bunch of time to practice a technical movement for the purposes of conditioning. WAY too much effort to expend for a secondary goal.

There is nothing he could get out of snatches conditioning wise that he couldn't get out of simpler derivatives. You just be diverting resources with complications.

That is, I have nothing against snatches but for the purposes of conditioning it's like learning to break dance so you can get in shape.

Rant time.

You can go to any number of thousands of websites and get exercise techniques. Including mine (better :biglaugh:).

Most of these exercise we do are not complicated like a snatch or a clean and jerk or any of that. They are simple and when you coach them in person, man it is 10 minutes work to get the basic idea across. It takes longer for the person to really learn and hone in the movement but just explaining it, correcting they're body position and have them do some good reps isn't hard unless they have some really bad fundamental movement flaws.

There is nothing magical or secretive that some bigshot knows that is going to turn these simple movements on their head and revo-friggen-lutionalize them. They are what they are and all you introduce with a lot of fancy "cues" is...a lot of fancy cues.

When you are explaining something in written form it is MUCH harder. You can't show them you have to tell them. You can try to show them with words but even that can be confusing if the image brought to mind is the wrong image.

But you have two choices. You can say:

1) Here it is in all it's inglorious reality. I hope that my explanation is maybe a bit more thourough and clearer than others and will help you learn and use this exercise effectively. That is about impressing the movement on someone. The information.

2) You can try to appear like you know some big friggen secret about this simple ass shit that they can't get from anyone but you. You can't be seen as just giving the same old basic explanations that any old person can give. You have to be putting in some fancy clues so you can have something to say that appears to put you above the fold.

The first one is about impressing your ideas on people. The second is about impressing yourself on people. I do not accuse anyone of doing these things on purpose. I believe that it is a unconscious need that is manifested when people write about this stuff (and there is of course all those products to sell).

Remember that for most movments, even the slow ones, there is actually no time, or no way to make concious changes in a movement. Either you can do it or you can't.

In the case of the fast lifts, there is LITERALLY not enough time. The various adjustments needed are ACTUALLY FASTER THAN CONCIOUS THOUGHT. For instance, the only time you can actually make a concious adjustment on the clean and jerk is during the transition from the catch to the jerk/press. You have a bit of time to maybe adjust the grip and elbow position.

For the slower lifts when they are heavy it's the shear weight that makes thinking about it too late. Even if you end up hitching up a heavy deadlift you are not standing they're thinking, now I'll bend my knees and now I'll pull back on the barbell and then shift it up an inch on my thighs. You've too busy trying to hitch up a heavy ass weight, lol.

So, watch out for the "big secrets" and watch out for verbal cues that are meant to be done "purposely" during a movement.

It's different when an exercise is misunderstood, mis-executed, and mis-taught on a widespread basis. Then, if you can clear things up everything you say is special :) But trying to take an exercise that is generally well understood and make it new is just a "look at me" moment.

i didn't find db snatches to be super technical...i just think they are fun...and they definitely get my blood flowing. i didn't mean to "impress" the db snatch or myself onto anuj :)

i took attack the zipper to mean don't get all lazy and relax on the bell's descent...not anything about flexion anywhere....just downswing is just as important as the upswing.

and i've never read anything about db swings on this site....until today :)

I wasn't talking about you in that last post and I wasn't accusing you.

BTW, you said snatches, not dumbbel snatches. DB snatches are easier to get than barbell snatches and most dumbbell versions of fast lifts are a bit easier simply because of the added freedom you get.

But you recommended them for conditioning and my point was that it's a bit complicated solely for that purpose...crossfit aside, lol. And I would be worried for Anuj's shoulders, especially since he's probably go too heavy, not keep the db in tight enough or something and end up with a dislocation.

I understand that you like them.

As far as my complaints about the cues you need to have a clear vision of what a verbal cue is supposed to accomplish. It's not just some shit to say to replace some other shit you could say.

If you don't want people to relax and get too lazy the best way to say that is just say it. So if that is what "attack the zipper" means it is just trying to sound all clever but does not impart clear instruction.

It sounds to me like it is telling people to try to shove they're arms into their groins. Doing that will tend to cause the body to go into flexion. Same thing with "shoving the weight back". People will shove their ARMS back and the same result. I promotes flexion.

The idea may be to promote more stretch. You don't need it. You are storing up tons of energy on the back swing you just need to reverse efficiently.

Whether you've read anything about swings, my general point still stands. Just because I reacted to your post doesn't mean my rant wasn't about a general trend. Swings are old news and MR coining "attack the zipper" doesn't make them new. But I guarantee I could have posted another explanation of them a month before and it still wouldn't matter.

Look, lots of these guys I'm responsible for introducing their names onto this board. But when I did that it was because they said certain things that I thought were instructive. You still have to give some critical thought to everything everybody says and not just assume that every thing that drops out of their mouth is gold. So I gave it some critical thought and I gave you my reaction.

What you do is up to you. I'm just saying that I'm going to react naturally to something no matter WHO originally said it. Matter of fact I just told Jesus he was full of shit. Then we got high.

I agree. I remember the links you just posted:

Man....this takes me back so many years lol....2 years and look how things have changed!!!

The truth is, sir, I haven't done them since that day. So between 2007 and 2010 I've never done these and I just know how I should do them judging by your comments (you know I save gems like those) so I wanted to be sure atleast some of the reps were on the money, you know?

It's similar to a pullthrough except a little more forceful. These exercises don't need detailed descriptions like what Robertson and Cressey provide....they're similar to pullthroughs in the sense the weight is being pulled behind and like you said: the trainee's job is to control the movement via the hips and back. Simple. Next time I'm nailing this.

This is funny. I didn't catch that part but Pity: no I don't want to do snatches and I 99.999% sure that neither do you. The sad and ugly truth about any olympic movement is that you need a coach if you want to do it the right way. Otherwise you're just muscling up a movement which should actually be 100% technique.

This is funny...I read just a week ago or so how this guy on IA's board - Joe, loves to do high rep explosive olympic movements on his conditioning days because it makes him spend more effort. BWaaahhh....No because most people who can't do an overhead squat with a fucking broomstick are most definitely NOT going to be able to land a perfect snatch.

And to bring it back to me: no, I don't want to do any snatches - dumbbell or barbell or cable. Eric's right: me being me will use too much weight and cause injury OR I'll use too little weight, manage to losen up my shoulder joints like I did when I was on Maximum Strength with those shoulder mobility exercises and suffer from a dislocation somewhere further down the road. No snatches.

I agree. Doing oly lifts for reps is idiotic because even oly lifters dont do that (I actually follow 3 oly guys on bb.com because they're training has evolved so much it's fascinating) and I can say this with certainty: oly lifts need proper coaching (not eCoaching) and they are done for very very few reps.

This is what I understood it to be which is why I didn't bother with it....I wasn't going to do that because (and you can go over the same links you gave me) that is what I was doing before. So I knew NOT to do that again.

This is the key to a LOT of movement: pullthroughs, good mornings, etc..

But this is true of everyone. You have to take the good and rip it apart from the bad. We all hate on Rippetoe for being hillbilly but the truth is that linear periodization is cool and it works for some time. But.....we didn't need Rippetoe to tell us that's the ONLY way to progress now, did we? :D

did cressey's broomstick shoulder mobility thing bother you? i hate that thing.

i use very little weight on snatches...it goes up effortlessly if you store alot of energy in the hamstrings and just let the hips snap...no muscling up involved. if i used too much weight and had to risk dropping a heavy db...and it goes through the floor. i'd be looking for a new place to live with alot of bills following me along the way. with my right shoulder issues i'll never be adding alot of weight to it and if i do weight will be added very slowly....but it's nice to have as an explosive exercise.

but i did forget that you are you and would probably try 120 lb db's the first time :)

A LOT of the exercises in MS bothered my shoulders....I have the book in Bombay right now but yeah: it was a disaster.

Don't push it. I am not THAT thick-headed!!!! :violin::elephant::th_th7_12_6:

Beginning Thoughts:

Just got back from the gym...So tired!

Workout:

Deadlifts:
415 lbs x 3 reps
455 lbs x 3 reps
455 lbs x 3 reps
435 lbs x 3 reps
435 lbs x 3 reps
The goal was to add density to today's training in comparison to M18 W3 Doubles training....My grip was better than last week but it gave me some trouble on the last reps of every set. Lots of rest in between sets - over 10 minutes every time. This workout took a lot out of me.

Hand Extensions:
2 bands x 15 reps x 3 sets

Swiss Ball Jackknife Pikes:
Skipped

Videos:

Deadlifts:

YouTube

Overall Impression:

So I ran this little experiment. I can't help but sleep on my stomach spread eagled on the bed. I just cannot sleep in any other position. But, this awkward position has lead to some hyperextension of the back at night and it's been affecting my negatively because I've been experiencing some back pains - lower back tightness and easy fatigue in general. But, over the last 10 days I have struggled and tried my very best to sleep strictly on my back and it's been a pain in the ass but I have managed to sleep in that fashion for almost all the nights. And I could REALLY sense the difference right from day one actually. Almost NO lower back tightness! I hope this lasts. It's not a big deal but I hate sleeping on my back. Zero comfort.

I hope everyone's had a good week. My weekend has already begun! :D

455lb x 3.... You're really starting to creep towards that 500 mark!!!

Awesome.

IW