Bodybuilding.net - Bodybuilding Forum

Darkhorse · #1 11-02-2006, 04:26 AM

Quote:

How do I pick my weights for the 5x5? Should I start with something close to what I did in week 1 for DFHT, do I just guesstimate what I can do and adjust accordingy?? The weights should be manageable but not pussy weights right?

I'd go off of what you did for your 5 x 5 for DFHT. If you did something like 200 lbs for DFHT and it very difficult, then I'd put that into your 5 x 5 week 3. I wouldn't "pussify" the weights too much for your first week though. Maybe something like this:

DFHT- Flat Bench: 185 (5 x 5) [Very tough to get through]
* Deload

Bill Starr's 5 x 5- Flat Bench
- Week One: 155 (5 x 5)
- Week Two: 175 (5 x 5)
- Week Three: 185 (5 x 5)
- Week Four: 190-195 (5 x 5)
* Deload

Bill Starr's program is such a good program, and it'll most likely help you reach a new PR for week 4-5. If it's still too much for you, then hold it over for week 4, then add 5 lbs and beat it for week 5. Small increments go a long way!

Quote:

And How long should I plan on running the 5x5 for? I was assuming I run it until I stall on the progression.

You're talking about dual factor 5 x 5 right? That's the one you should be running. No more than 4 weeks LOADING, 1 deload, then I HIGHLY recommend incorperating the intensity phase (3 x 3, 1 x 3). I grew very nicely during the tail end of the deload all the way through the intensity phase. Hands down the funnest three weeks of the program! Plus, in order to hit your goals, the intensity phase is vital!

Quote:

What should I plan on doing after the 5x5? Do I go back to DFHT, rerun the 5x5 and try and hit more maxes, do something else, or should I wait and think about that when I get closer to that time?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. To quote Glenn Pendlay:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Pendlay

There seem to be a lot of people who do the style of training we usually can "5 by 5" for a while, then wonder "whats next".

One general comment i would make, is that if this style of training has been successful for you, why change it? And by style of training, I’m not talking about one specific program, but the general style of doing whole body exercises, training the whole body or at least most of the body in each workout, and doing multiple sets not taken to failure.

I do, however, understand the mental side... you do the same thing over and over and you want something different. There are lots of ways you can change things without totally changing to a "new" program. Switching back and forth between widely differing types of training isn’t that good of an idea... small and systematic changes over time in what you are doing however IS a good idea.

for instance... say you’ve been squatting 3 times a week. How about changing one of the workouts to front squat, hell you could change 2 of the workouts to front squat. I hate leg presses, but if you really wanted to, you could squat on monday, front squat on wednesday, and leg press on friday!!! If you’ve been doing only rows for back, change one or two of the workouts to chinups... substitute stiff legged deadlifts for deadlifts, change mondays workout to 3 sets of 8 for a month, change fridays squat or bench workout to 5 singles, etc, etc, etc.

I’ve even seen people who after a while on a 3 day a week program, switched to a 4 day split, doing squats and pressing exercises on monday and thursday, back and pulling exercises on wed and saturday. I don’t see this as retreating from the principles of the 5 by 5 at all. You are STILL working your whole body, or very nearly so, every training day. Squats work the back, they work everything... and deadlifts or stiff legged deadlifts work the legs, not as much as squats, but they still work them. This is in fact the favored program of mike stone, probably the best ex phys guy on the planet and former head of sports science at the olympic training center.

The main thing is to go about it in a systematic way.

One of my lifters, josh wells, who made the junior world team in 2004 in weightlifting, and can jerk close to 400lbs weighing around 180lbs as a teenager, did this program about a year ago in his "off season" to try to gain some general strength.

monday, squats (5 sets of 3), push presses (3 sets of 5) then glute ham raises or reverse hypers

wednesday, snatch pulls (5 sets of 2), powercleans (5 sets of 2), chinups (5 sets of 10 with extra weight, hanging from a 2" bar)

thursday, front squats (6 sets of 2), push jerks (5 sets of 2), military press (3 sets of 5), then glute ham raises or reverse hypers.

saturday, powersnatches (5 sets of 2), clean pulls (5 sets of 5), barbell rows, (5 sets of 5)

obviously this is geared toward olympic weightlifting, and not really what most of you would be doing. I’m not sure many here have that much interest in doing so many snatch and clean pulls. And he’s using lower reps, because of course for him strength is a bigger deal than size, but even his reps changed over time, sometimes were higher, sometimes lower. This is just as representative of the 5 by 5 training style as the simpler 3 day programs... because we did it systematically, sets across instead of failure, gradually moving the weights up, gradually adding then subtracting volume of training to force the body to adapt

the important thing is to think thru the changes, don’t make too many at one time, but make them slowly and steadily.

The real value of the "5 by 5" style of training isn’t that it can or will add a certain amount of muscle or strength in an 8 week cycle. The real value is that it is a framework that when used right can work for years, slowly changing and morphing along the way to fit itself to your particular goals, and making for steady progress for 3, 4, or more years. It is more than anything, a mindset. a mindset of writing your workouts down, being systematic, knowing what you are going to do before you go to the gym, having a plan, and knowing that 5lbs a month is 60lbs a year and 180lbs in 3 years.

and more than that it is a mindset of THINKING, thinking about training, and rejecting the latest and greatest thing that forces many, even most, to run from one program to the next, changing things totally every time they get bored or have a bad workout. By recording everything, thinking a lot, planning, making small changes instead of wholesale ones, going back and looking at your workout log and looking at the last month, 6 months, year, etc, and planning the next month... within a year or two you know more about your body and what to do than me or anyone else could ever tell you.

Now... last comment. I have, in a big drawer, a record of every single workout i have ever done, from the time I was 15 back in 1975 to my last month of competitive training in 2003. Every single one. I also have descriptions and comments, tables in the back of the logs that showed weight gain and strength gain on a yearly basis, monthly, etc. comments on what happened to weight/strength when I changed exercises, changed reps, etc. there is very little I don’t know about how my body responded, what worked and what didn’t, etc. you all should do the same thing. Approach training like a scientist working an experiment.

Kane · #2 11-02-2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0311

No more than 4 weeks LOADING, 1 deload, then I HIGHLY recommend incorperating the intensity phase (3 x 3, 1 x 3). I grew very nicely during the tail end of the deload all the way through the intensity phase. Hands down the funnest three weeks of the program! Plus, in order to hit your goals, the intensity phase is vital!

So I should be doing:

4 Weeks loading DFHT
1 Week Deload DFHT
2 Week Intensity DFHT

Would I do the same exercises for the intensity phase as I did in the deload? and should I run a 2 week intensity phase? I forget about running the SF 5x5 since I'm doing an intensity phase right?

Somewhere along the lines I got confused lol...5x5, DFHT, Load, Deload, Intensity...its a bit much to take in and organize. I HAVE been reading through the DFT Thread as well as 0311's DFT Journal to see if I could answer my own questions, but for some reason (probably school) my brain is on overload right now

EricT · #3 11-02-2006, 06:18 AM

Oh, we're talking about two different things. I was assuming you were thinking the single factor and so my point was that that would be a good way to do accumulation and intensification. I personally think either way would be good so I disagree that dual factor is necessarily what you SHOULD be running. Running the single factor with straight progression would almost gurantee you new PR's but the dual factor would probably gurantee you more growth.

Darkhorse · #4 11-02-2006, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Running the single factor with straight progression would almost gurantee you new PR's but the dual factor would probably gurantee you more growth.

Well that all depends upon how agressively we're talking. Dual factor sounds like a better fit because he's become pretty experienced with deloading protocols. It all depends on his buildup. He could gun for a 2/5% PR for dual factor same as single factor really. Either way he'll hit new PR's IMO. If it's dual factor, he's looking at a shorter loading period than single factor. I'm just going off of my experience with both. He could hit PR's all day long if he did D.F., then ran through an intensity phase as opposed to single factor's perpetual 5 x 5 loading.

Either way he's fine, but I'd personally like him to run through an intensity phase to hit his goals a little faster.

EricT · #5 11-02-2006, 06:46 AM

That makes sense, 0311. Of course I defer to your experience with the DF. My thought were it would be harder to judge the buildup with DF at this point but since he's already run a single factor he would be able to learn from that and get a great improvement due to proper deloading this time. But as you say, either way OK....but hell, if you can get to the same point faster then that's good

.

Darkhorse · #6 11-02-2006, 07:18 AM

Yeah, once you've done single factor for a spell, you'll have a great handle on programs that I consider the next building block up like Dual Factor. If you've kept up a log of what you did for single factor, then dual factor should be easy to start. All you're basically doing is inputting what you feel are your TRUE 5x5 1x5 RM's in week 3, reverse plan back to week one, and add another 5-10 pounds for week 4. If someone dicked the dog and overestimated week 3, then carrying it over to week 4 should be a no-brainer. Once the deload week is over (week 5), then all bets are off for the intensity phase. I remember adding 20+ pounds for some exercises like bench and deadlifts like it was nothing.

The intensity phase is what's key for some big gains. That'll be the difference maker that seperates single and dual factor. After the intensity phase is a perfect time to load up on DFHT. Reason being because you can input what you need to specifically address any weaknesses you may have from the full 5 x 5 program.

EricT · #7 11-02-2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0311

The intensity phase is what's key for some big gains.

Right. I gotcha.

_Wolf_ · #8 11-02-2006, 05:26 PM

best of luck kane

Sentinel

Darkhorse · #9 11-03-2006, 04:39 AM

Quote:

So I should be doing:

4 Weeks loading DFHT
1 Week Deload DFHT
2 Week Intensity DFHT

Never heard of an intensity DFHT before LOL..

Nothing is set in stone. That's what you need to realize. The DFHT could see a 3 week loading phase, or even a 4 week load. It up to YOU. If you feel great, then keep going.

I wouldn't start with DFHT though...

-> DF 5x5 volume phase
-> Deload
-> DF 3x3 intensity phase
-> Deload
-> DFHT loading
-> DFHT deload
...ect...

My old DF journal won't reflect the intensity phase because I experimented with running back to back volume phases seperated by a deload.

To be honest, I'd prefer you to START with the DF 5x5, running through both the volume and intensity phases, then fucking around with the DFHT. My reasoning is because the DF 5x5 can and will give you the strength and overall thickness. The DFHT can be used to compliment your 5x5 training by addressing your weak areas in both your strength and body composition. For example, after the DF 5x5, you maybe stuck at 200 lbs benching about halfway up. So for DFHT, you'll incorperate some more floor/board presses to help out with that (upper 2). Same goes for squatting. If you're stuck, then for DFHT, incorperating the goodmornings and pullthroughs will most certainly help. Biceps not up to snuff after all the heavy 5x5 pulls?.. Incorperate some rest/pausing for arms during your DFHT. Hopefully, I illustrated my point in a way that'll convince you.

Darkhorse · #10 11-03-2006, 04:54 AM

One more thing Kane. I personally always used Matt Reynold's version (animalmass). It has the MOST amount of volume because everything is 5x5 excluding one of the OLY Squats (1x5). I don't recommend you use that one. Most people who are where you're at had the most success with Madcow's example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madcow

4 Weeks Loading 5x5

Monday:

Olympic Squats: 5x5
Benching: 1x5 (pyramid)
JS Rows: 1x5 (pyramid)
Accessory (skullcrushers and abs)

Wednesday:

Olympic Squats: 5x5 (reduced 15-20% from Monday) or Front Squats 5x5
Standing Military Press: 5x5
Deadlifts: 5x5
Pull ups: 5x5
Accessory (incline curls and abs)

Friday:

Olympic Squats: 1x5 (pyramid)
Benching: 5x5
JS Rows: 5x5
Accessory (weighted dips and abs)

Only difference is more pyramid schemes to cut back on some volume. This represents the volume phase.

For the deload week, whatever was 1x5 becomes 1x3; and 5x5 becomes 3x3 -> Using the same weight as your last volume week. Other than that, you are dropping the Wednesday squats. If you really feel like shit, then you'd just go twice that week to the gym. Monday is day one, Thursday is 'Wednesday's' workout.

The intensity phase is the exact same setup as your deload week. It would look like this:

Quote:

3 Weeks Intensity Phase

Monday:

Olympic Squats: 3x3
Benching: 1x3 (pyramid)
JS Rows: 1x3 (pyramid)
Accessory (skullcrushers and abs)

Wednesday:

Standing Military Press: 3x3
Deadlifts: 3x3
Pull ups: 3x3
Accessory (incline curls and abs)

Friday:
Olympic Squats: 1x3 (pyramid)
Benching: 3x3
JS Rows: 3x3
Accessory (weighted dips and abs)

Bodybuilding.net - Bodybuilding Forum

Kane's DFHT (Courtesy of 0311 once again)