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the 2 vids of today:

JS Rows 145 x 6

Click here for set 1

Click here for set 2

The sec vid doesn't seem to work.

Have you watched them? Why do you think that is better?

why do i think what is better? oh, u mean why JS over regular? well...

hmm..

well, Eric, because i have spent like the last 6 months doing JS Rows that ive forgotten how to do regular barbell rows. they feel alien to me lol....if u want ill go back to regular rows E.

oh, and link has been fixed

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oh, and i know ur reasoning behind wanting me to change the variation (and i agree with it) and this is assuming u want me to do another type of row next time, do u have any particular type in mind like 45 degree rows or yates rows???

Well let's forget the distinction between "regular rows" and "JS rows". Let's just say the latter is a deloaded (on the floor). Let's also forget about the whole idea of flexing the thoracic spine on every rep. In other words let's try and pretend the are pretty much the same except one you put on the floor and the other you don't.

So the first thing I'm wondering is if your lumbar spine is flexed during your "regular" rows like it is on the JS ones. Basically your entire spine is fexed (rounded) the ENTIRE time. Lifting heavy weights with your whole spine flexed? Not good.

Ok, besides that. You put the bar on the floor. Pause. Straighten your arms and then your BODY moves first before the bar. Basically you pull yourself down (increasing the spinal flexion) shorten the range of motion, then row it up with arms already bent and spine flexed. The two things together basically turing it into a dangerous "half-row".

I'm wondering if you can tell when your lumbar spine is flexed? The general rounding of the spine should be obvious but you may not be able to tell well if your lower spine is "set" in this position. And I'm thinking if you do these kinds of things on JS rows then you might be doing them on the others.

We can get into the JS rows and all the internet stuff about them later. Right now I'm worried about these types of habits because I'm thinking it's an indication of why your back got hurt.

Before recommending any other rows I'd like to know you understand how to do a row in general.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

hmm..

Eric, i thought that if i round my back its fine while doing JS Rows. the other way to do would be with an arched back right? but with an arched back my js rows becomes a non-deweighted row. its becomes a regular barbell row. while doing a regular barbell row im keeping my back arched, my lower back is tight. damn, i thought that if my back was a bit rounded it would be ok. i keep it rounded because if i straighten it completely and arch my lower back then i cant do JS Rows.

as for the whole body moving, i think thats happening because im focussing on putting all my weight on my ass so that i can pull the bar without falling forward. and im supposed to hit my chest, right? so that means i have to shove my butt more behind. if i was doing these rows to my stomach then i wont need to position myself in such a way. E, am i correct?

damn, i seriously fucking hate it when my form is shit!

ps: oh, and yes this time my back was wayyy too rounded. its not that rounded normally. if u want ill take another vid next week. i watched the videos 4 times now and yes, my back is heavily rounded. but i never intended it to be so rounded...:(

Ok so we have to get into the whole JS rows things vs. regular rows.

The idea behind the back rouding on JS rows is in regards to the thoracic spine only, NOT the lumbar spine. Yes, that means you are supposed to learn how to round the upper back only while keeping the lower back set (in a natural arched postion). This is the part that is hard. So with the lower back set the weight goes down in a controlled fashion and the upper back is allowed to round to get the weight on the floor. The question is whether it is just a rounding of the back or a mixture of rounding and passive protraction of the scapula or just one or the other. Protracting the scapula severly is bascially destabilizng the shoulders so you wouldn't want to much of that.

But anyway once you get it one the floor it is said to be a power movement. So you do it with a forcefull EXTENSION of the thoracic spine and retraction of the shoulder blades so that you end up with the shoulders back and the weight driven into the abdomen.

That's supposedly the method as far as the internet rounds are concerned. I did all this a while despite my better judgement and all I got for my time was yet another part of my body fucked up....my mid back. Personally I think all that sucks eggs and it is bound to come back and bite many people in the ass after a while.

But what you are doing is basically pulling the bar up with you arms. You don't seem to really even be retracting the scapula. All a row really is is a forcefull pulling together of the scapula. Ther is very little arm in it.

Personally, I'm dropping the above "method" of deweighted rows. It's absolutely hell on the spine and it's connective tissues.

ok so sir, would u like me to do this:

1.) keep the arch on my lower back.

2.) allow the upper back to bend in a natural manner so as to allow the weight to be deweighted onto the floor?

3.) pull my shoulder blades together just like i do with the bench press

4.) pull the bar from the floor keeping the above 3 in mind.

is this ok? if u want, ill do a demo version on friday this week and put up a vid.

hey E. sorry for all the confusion. i dont want to make this into a js rows vs. other type of row thingy. u wanted to know if i ever learned to do a proper row before the js row. yes, i did. remember when i was doing SF 5x5 almost a year ago i had put up my vids with my attempt at regular rows where in week 1 itself i knocked out 185x3 on friday??? yup, i have learnt regular rows.

Ok see, this is the problem.

It shouldn't be a new concept to you that you are pulling the shoulder blades together (retracting them) on a row. Both bench and rows both involve scapula retraction.

If I had my way I'd rather you not worry about deweighting it at all and learn how to do a row period before you do JS rows anymore. Then if you want to do the whole upper back rounding thing, do it at your own risk. You could deweight by putting the bar on something raised and then do the row with out all the thoracic rounding.

Some thoracic rouding at some points, like sometimes when your doing a particular heavy deadlift, is to be expected. But to do it as PART of an exercise is really unnatural. Your back wasn't made to continually flex in this fashion. I knew better when I started to do them in the first place...but you live and learn.

The big problem is the distinction between JS rows and parllel deloaded rows. It is perfectly feasible for many, if they have the flexibility and strength to perform deloaded parallel barbell rows without all that thoracic flexion. I do it all the time. So many people keep saying that the Pendley/JS is just a deloaded row. Well if that is the case then fine.

Unless these people think that a barbell row is always performed with a thoracis flexion/extension. Then I have to wonder what the hell is going on here. From what I have been able to get, the distinction between JS rows and regular parallel rows is the upper back movement. If you think that the back was meant to function like an elbow joint then by all means keep on keeping on .