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It's almost like a newbie has two choices:

a) Purchase a sturdy bar, some 10 and 25 lb plates, and a bench and do workouts using deadlifts, squats, bench, ohp's, ect..

b) Go get a Bow-Flex.

I was just thinking back to the Marine Corps bootcamp. There were a lot of "newbie's" or better yet, really out of shape guys who couldn't do a single pullup. Now, did the military waste government money buying a lat pulldown machine? No. Instead, if you cannot do something, they make you keep doing it until you can. To date, the Marine Corps as well as other armed forces I'm sure has a near 100% success rate.

Additionally, trainers also forget the past. I'm talking 50+ years ago when bodybuilders didn't have machines. Just a barbell, weight, and perhaps some kettleballs and DB's for the lucky few. At one point, they were also all beginners, yet over time, doing programs exactly like the aforementioned, gained both strength and mass and looked incredible with their limited means (aka food, supplements, cable row machines, ect)

Perhaps some examples through the years are in order.

Alan Calvert, from his ‘First Course in Body-Building and Muscle-Developing Exercises’, 1924, included the following drills in his program: Standing Curls, Bent-Over Rows, Standing Press Behind Neck, Stiff-Arm Pullovers, Weighted Situps, Overhead Press while seated on the floor, Straddle Lifts, Shrugs, Squats up on the toes, One-Arm Press/Side Press, One-Arm Swings, and a strange type of Supported, Bent-Over One-Arm Reverse Curl.

Mark Hamilton Berry, from his ‘First Course in Physical Improvement and Muscle Developing Exercises’, circa ~1936: Standing Curl, Floor Press, Bent Rows, Standing Press Behind Neck, Two-Arm Pullovers, Squats, Shrugs, Straddle Lifts, Weighted Situp, One-Arm Press/Side Press, One-Arm KB Swing, Wrist Roller, Wrestler’s Bridge, Reverse Curl, Military Press.

Harry Barton Paschall, ‘The Bosco System of Progressive Physical Training’, 1954: (Program 1: Bodybuilding) Upright Rows, Standing Press, Standing Curls, Bent Rows, Squats, Pullovers, Calf Raise, Stiff-Legged Deadlift/Shrug combination drill, Side Bends, DB Circles, Weighted Situps, and Leg Swings; (Program 2: Weight Gaining) Clean and Press, Standing Curls, Bent Rows, Bench Press, Squat, and Chest Lifts.

John McCallum, from his Keys to Progress series, circa the mid-1960s: (An article titled ‘For Size and Strength’) Prone Hyper-Extensions, Squats and Pullovers, Front Squats, Bench Press, Power Cleans, Rowing, Press Behind Neck, Incline Curls.

* Not one machine, all these guides aimed at beginners.

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I really think a whole lot of this stuff comes from the misguided application of principles of injury rehabilitation to actual weight training.

One more point I'll mention. Examine the term, "You have to walk before you can run." This is a perfect quote for this discussion. Walking basically is the same as running, just at a very slow pace. So over time, you keep walking faster and faster until you start running!" Same exact thing in this case, metaphorically speaking. A beginner should start off with very light weighted compound exercises, working on form and strengthening their musculature. Over time, more weight gets added to the bar (now they're starting to jog) and before you know it... A few years later they're benching 200 lbs (full sprint). If you examine what I said, those proportions are correct. If we did it your way, we'd have the novice doing some leg extensions, leg curls, and riding the recumbant bike to get him ready to start running.... That's extreme I know, but I'm making a point.

The only thing I know he used is dips. But it seems like a reading comprehension thing. From what I remember he would use dips for SOME people in the way outlined to get ready for other things, not as an add-on like it is here . Course sometimes I'm not sure if people mean tricep dips or what. Obviously they are listed as an accessory in some variations.

Here is a cut and paste of some of the comments about training kids from Glen and Mark:

Glenn: There is a chapter included in Mark’s book written by Lon Kilgore that specifically deals with the misconceptions about youth training. I personally don’t see any physical problems. We don’t hesitate to put kids in soccer or gymnastics at 4-5 years of age, either of which are way more stressful on the body than weight training, and either of which are way more likely to cause injury. So I think the whole safety thing is a non-issue. I’m more concerned with a kids mental development. Just like with any other recreational activity, if the kid is mature enough to follow directions and keep his mind on task for a reasonable amount of time, he can do it. If not, he can’t. I’ve got a 7 year old girl right now who does really well. I’ve also seen kids quite a bit older who really shouldn’t be in the weight room.

One thing I like to explain to people who are hesitant to put their kids in any sort of resistance training program is the concept of adjustability. Weight training is adjustable, infinitely adjustable, while most activities are not. This actually makes it MORE appropriate than many other things for people, including young kids, whose physical abilities aren’t that great. When you do a handstand, jump up and land, or run into somebody on the soccer field, the stress that these things transmit to the body is determined by the laws of physics and the bodyweight of the participants. Gravity doesn’t give a break to the guy with weak legs. With weight training, we can adjust down to whatever is appropriate to start with, even if it’s a broomstick, then gradually add from there in whatever increments and at whatever speed is reasonable. You never have to ask someone to do something that they aren’t ready for or strong enough to do safely, no matter how young or weak they are. My 3 year old son did a pretty good set of 10 the other day on the overhead squat…with a broomstick. That’s resistance training, and it illustrates what is appropriate for that age, playing with a broomstick and copying the older kids and having fun.


Rip: By young, I assume you mean prepubescent. I have always just taught them the lifts, yelled at them about absolutely correct form all the time, and let them lift as much as they can for sets of 5. They go up as they are able, with very small jumps and no more than 3 workouts per week. They are not strong enough to lift enough weight to get injured. It is virtually impossible to get hurt with absolutely correct form anyway, and correct form precludes any use of more weight than can be safely handled. They are also encouraged to eat right, eat a lot, and sleep.


Glenn: Mark deals with a lot of kids in the 12 to 14 age group. The way he does it is absolutely right. By definition, if they are doing a certain weight or exercise while following his program, they are strong enough to do it safely. In my opinion, there simply is not ANY better way to handle this age group. I often work with even younger kids, right down to the 7-8 year old age group. It’s necessary, if you want to develop the very best weightlifters (the sport, not the activity) to start young. With this age group you have to pay attention to the mental side of things, the attention span. So I do more variety with these kids, and don’t have quite the set in stone program for them that either Mark or I use for older kids. More “fun” type of activities so that they are doing different types of things every week and don’t get bored.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Well looky here:

Again you'd need to read the book and I'm not sure how much of it he goes into. But in as much as this adheres to what Bill Starr would do, it's a lot of extra stuff for a beginner.

Absolutely. It's specificity of training. All you have to do is look at Lance Armstrong. Recently he ran a marathon. He had a time frame in mind and he did just barely manage to meet that time frame. But he was hurting like he never did before and he difinitely wasn't sure he would even be able to finish near the end, let alone meet his goal. He said it's the hardest thing he every did and he doesn't know how marathoners do it.

It's a silly question for such a great athlete to ask. The way they do it is that they are marathoners and not bike racers . You put them on a bike race and they are going to fall flat on their face. Here's the thing. Lance is pretty exeptional. I have a feeling that many of his cyclist peers wouldn't have done as well. Riding a bike, no matter how cardiovascularly fit you get, does not prepare you body for the impact of running a long, long distance.

Weight triaining is the same way.

Yup. There's plenty of examples of programs that aim to bring up your core lifts by solely focusing on those specific lifts..

- Korte's 3x3
- Bill Starr's 5x5 (beginner, inter, advan)
- Mark Rippetoe (same)
- Smolov Squatting
- Olympic weightlifting in general
- and many others..

This all ties into what I've been saying to every novice that passes by here. Develop a strength base via a program just like this, THEN focus on all the bodybuilding isolations. I'd rather see a novice put in the time under the bar for 'x' amount of years, bring his bench/squat/deadlift up to at least a 200/300/400, THEN begin focusing on the higher reps, lowered intensity, isolations, ect. There is a stark difference between a novice who started off focusing on hypertrophy vs. one who focused on strength and paid his dues.

But that's in a perfect world, and I really haven't met a person who was gung-ho to faithfully steer clear of isolations and drop sets in favor of hard work! Too boring I guess..

And BTW, as they PROGRESSIVELY load the bar with these kinds of full body routines formulated around the SQUAT, they WILL be not only functionally strong, but have attained a TON of mass provided their see-food diet was in order... (as per my sig(s))

Yeah and by the same token I'd say you'd see less injuries in the long run that way, not more. It's all these non-funtional isolations, super high reps that lead to muscle imbalances, chronic overuse injuries. THEN you try the heavy compound barbell exercise when your body needs to function as a unit instead of a collection of parts, and....you might as well be made of paper mache'.

^^ Totally agree dude, for a beginner it's about those functional exercises. I mean how often do we do knee extension movements in everyday activities compared to squats? Not often unless you take specific sports into account.

Obviously free weights are much more beneficial than machines, but beginner's should take time to learn correct technique and movement patterns with light weights. It's not so much a fear of a ripped tendon but the fear they learn incorrect movements, continue these movements and end up in a bad physical state further down the track.Once there body remembers the pattern (which probaly only take a couple of sessions) they'll generally progress quickly to more challenging weights. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of different variants for different exercises and whilst learning these free weight exercises, machines can be something a beginner can jump straight on to and work to fatigue in the mean time.

No I'm not a trainer yet, but currently studying. I won't pretend to know everything because I don't and you guys are extremely insightful which is why I joined this forum. This is just how I'd personally progress a client.

An example I will use is Olympic squats (aka rock bottom/butt resting on calves). Throughout evolution, squatting down all the way is the most natural thing we could do. When I teach someone how to squat, that's exactly what I tell them. You cannot get it wrong if you start off light enough. Now, I'm not saying they need to sit on their calves for flexability's sake, but at low as humanly possible. That's what we were designed to do! It's really easy to get the hang of BECAUSE of it being such a natural movement.



Same thing with every exercise aside from olympic lifts. There is a learning curve, sure, but it's certainly not rocket science. I learned everything on my own, and I'm about as sharp as a crayon. And I'm quite confident that if you ask around with everyone in your gym, almost ALL would say that they taught themselves or learned from a buddy. Like I've already said, there's only a very (and I mean very) small percentage of trainees who seek out and use a personal trainer. Speaking of my gym (its a major one), most of the trainees are either trying to lose weight or are women. THOSE people I can totally understand relying on machines with. But for those teenagers who want muscle mass, any trainer who's halfway decent will spend the time to go over how to do those VITAL compound lifts because that's essentially what they are BUYING. Fuck, why would a newbie bother paying for a PT's services so he can learn how to do some cable pulldowns or triceps extensions?? (not directed towards you) If you really want to continue studying to be a trainer, I highly.. HIGHLY recommend buying:

- Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength
- Dinosaur Training
- Beyond Brawn
- Practical Programming

All those books are by VERY respected and extremely experienced and proven weight trainers in this field. Glenn Pendlay, Mark Rippetoe, Stuart McRobert, ect. Top of the line. Glenn P. is one of the US Olympic team trainers who you can find over at midwestbarbell.com. Everything from those books are pretty much echoed by Eric and myself in our posts (we own the books). So we're not just blowing smoke up anyone's ass.

And IMO, there's absolutely NO EXCUSE for a new trainee NOT to learn those lifts and rely on machines when they have a fucking trainer standing next to them critiquing away! That would be a clear cut case of either the newbie being lazy, or the trainer. Not saying you, just being frank. I look around at my gym and see all the blue shirts ("PT's") standing next to a cable something watching Joe Newbie hammering away, not a word exchanged aside from "good job". Speaking of myself, I train people who live in my area all the time.. Mainly online, but occationally in the gym (if I'm there lifting). In every case, the only programs I put them on are outlined just like programs such as Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength (basically, look at my sig for a clue ) I always tell them they have no choice but to pay their dues (if they're serious), and they'll achieve what they're after... 100% success rate so far from everyone involved. Some have even told me via email how much they love the simplicity of only doing the free weighted compounds while steering clear of isolations and machines.... Gives them a lot of pride watching everyone else using the pinwheel hammer strength for deadlifts when they are loading the bar without wrist straps. So for many of them, it's a matter of PRIDE knowing they're getting stronger and seeing gains with those lifts vs. hitting up all the machines barely breaking a sweat.

My ONLY regret in life (in the weight room anyway) was that I wasn't taught the same things I'm trying to convey in threads such as this! I started out with a 5 day split (as did everyone back then), tons of volume, a lot of machines, and virtually no squats, just the occational leg press. If I was to do a program like one of Bill's 5x5 routines that are built around frequency and the squat, I would not be sitting here talking to you with a 410 lb Olympic squat!.. Probably not with a 405 lb bench press either. Instead, if I started out when I was 17ish (a newbie) with this program, I'd probably have a 500 lb OLY squat and probably a 435 lb bench, easy. Instead, I was "spinning my wheels" dicking around with 5 day splits, machines, no legs aside from leg extensions and leg press machines, and certainly no deadlifting whatsoever.