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chalk/straps for deadlift???



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  #11  
Old 04-15-2008, 12:04 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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I agree on chalk. You can get a bar of chalk also. Or the rosin bag. It's not that messy and really who cares? Hell, I've used sidewalk chalk that I roughen up a little and rub on my hands. It's not the same but even that helps tremendously.

But from what it sounds like to me you are doing very well with grip. That is what it is like for me sometimes. Pulling a big one but not quite having the grip for the next one. If you do some supplemental grip work after you deads session you may find yourself keeping up...but chalk probably would have made a big difference to you. I hate straps as well.

I differ with 0311 on the going over-under. That's a short term benefit long term loss. I think what you are doing is the way to go for getting your grip up and being somewhat able to keep up. And I don't look at it at being all commando. Because when you switch to over-under when needed after using the double overhand you really have a lot more left so it is your reserve or "rescue" grip. Wouldn't rather have that rescue versus using over-under, failing, and having no where to turn other than straps? Always look to the long term. The fact is you held on to 515 and that is very good. IMO, if you can do that, then you will be able to hold onto the 535 as well. You just have to do some grip training (that is not to say that I wouldn't have used straps for the 535 if I had to).

Do what you have to do but if you obviously have the natural ability don't waste it.
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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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  #12  
Old 04-15-2008, 12:38 PM
Darkhorse Darkhorse is offline
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Quote:
Wouldn't rather have that rescue versus using over-under, failing, and having no where to turn other than straps? Always look to the long term.
I've never had a problem with grip going over under. In fact, I do rack deadlifting over under w/ a ton more than conventioal deads for that matter. Why do you think anyone would "fail" sticking solely with the OU.. And more than that, why wouldn't you use the most grip power for the heaviest deadlifts without it holding you back, then doing grip work until your hearts content afterwards? I think holding a double overhand during warmups is unnecessary. For a stronger grip, you're ALREADY doing yourself a great service by ditching the straps period.. That means swinging from the pullup bar with an extra 50 pounds on you, heavy rows without straps, ect. I wouldn't want my grip to fail during deadlifting period.

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Because when you switch to over-under when needed after using the double overhand you really have a lot more left so it is your reserve or "rescue" grip.
When I went back and reread what he wrote, it seems his "rescue" grip was failing him when it started getting heavy after the 2O
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  #13  
Old 04-15-2008, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 0311 View Post
I've never had a problem with grip going over under. In fact, I do rack deadlifting over under w/ a ton more than conventioal deads for that matter. Why do you think anyone would "fail" sticking solely with the OU.. And more than that, why wouldn't you use the most grip power for the heaviest deadlifts without it holding you back, then doing grip work until your hearts content afterwards? I think holding a double overhand during warmups is unnecessary.
actually, Dan, if you read through my journal you'll see that I used to have major grip problems....until i changed to using an over-over as far as i can and then shifting to an over-uner when needed.

using an over-over is more difficult than using an under. a lot of top notch strongmen (they post on FI's board and on bb.com in the PL'ing section) and powerlifters like Andy Bolton use an over-over for almost everything other than Max Attempts.

I think the formula which ive read is that if you use an over-under, then your over-over max is 70% of your over-under. however, if you train for an over-over grip then your max will be 40-50% more. thats probably why Andy Bolton and Ortmayer (who posts in the bb.com PL'ing section a LOT) use an over-over when they're working with less than 80% of their 1RM.
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  #14  
Old 04-15-2008, 12:49 PM
Darkhorse Darkhorse is offline
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Not me I guess lol. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Rob had problems with the heavy sets, so it makes sense to follow my advice and give it a try. I guess I'm not used to training people like Eric is with this.. I don't have any grip problems w/ rack deads, so perhaps I was using myself as an example.. I'm sure for every 10 powerlifters you say do this, I'll pull 10 that say do that.. In the end, what I try to do on forums like these is to curtail advice based on what the problem is.. In other words, if his grip was failing, I'm not going to tell him add more chalk vs. try ditching the double overhand, keep the over-under, and hit a fucking PR.
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  #15  
Old 04-15-2008, 12:55 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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You're not getting me. I've never ever used straps for deadlifting. Never. If I had stuck with over-under too much I wouldn't have trained my grip and I would not have been able to keep up. I've discussed this with you before and you just don't see what I'm saying.

I don't know why you think I mean something should hold people back. I don't let anything interfere with my ability to get my max deads. Double-overhand is simpley a way to train grip. The ideas is not to limit yourself but to train the grip in that way when you can and switch to the other grip when you can't. This will enable you to simply achieve more in the long run than you would if all you use is over-under. I've said like a hundred times to switch to the over-under for your heaviest deads when you need it. Just like people say to use straps when you need it.

But if I'm doing some singles, for instance, at above 90% I might need the over-under for the max, or for some of them, but not for all of them and it doesn't hold me back at all. I am just always training everything as much as possible.

I've tried both ways. I know good and well that I can use over-over to train my grip, progress very well, and always have that switch up at any given time to use so that I am not limited. And if I needed straps I would use them as well (which I have for rack deads at high volume).

Over-over is grip work but that doesn't mean it will hold you back...it will drive you forward. If you have never tried it why are you assuming it won't work. I know that the over-under is a rescue grip regardless of whether Rob wasn't able to pull it off that day. If you read it again you will also see this is what he has done in the past. Switched to an over-under when needed. He is just saying that he had trouble that one time...

So the answer to that imo would be some more supplemental grip work. It SOUNDS like it has worked for him so far though. Most people fail at 300 or so and that's pretty much it they must use straps.
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  #16  
Old 04-15-2008, 01:00 PM
Darkhorse Darkhorse is offline
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Your right as always Eric. I'm sure if it was just this ONE TIME, or that doing whatever you recommend works in the past for him, then I don't see why he should try changing anything then..

Hopefully everyone at least understands that what I say and what I do in my journal hitting PR's only works for one person and they should not try it without adult supervision.
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  #17  
Old 04-15-2008, 01:08 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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But I do agree with you on the handling of this one time, if you catch my drift. I should have mentioned that becasue he already knew he was having trouble. So to "gut it out" based on that when you're going for PR's...yeah, not such a good idea. But that doesn't mean you need to abandon the whole concept.

The way I see it he missed one lift but he has a good grip. One thing to learn, I think is to know when to switch, though. I would have probably had already switched sooner and wouldn't have done the 515 over-over. Like Kane was saying you don't wait till you fail you want to anticipate (he was talking about straps but it's similar). Rob said he was already having trouble with his grip. So, yeah, I agree, if you are having a bad grip day don't gut it out too much with over-over. That is not my point at all. I'm just saying not to suddenly change plans becasue of the one bad day....just anticipate it more. Shit happens

That's one thing I might have missed though in the whole conversation. Sometimes when you are doing the over-over, working up weights, the grip can go south kinda suddenly. It's not like you're straining the whole time. It just sneaks up on you. So then you swith grips and hopefully you're fine.

But most of the time you have some warning and you need to switch before you almost drop the bar. Actually, anuj is a good example becasue I've had trouble with getting him to switch when needed rather "gutting it out" and practically dropping the bar.....

We have to pay attention and use common sense. Do you kinda notice that there is always value in both opinions?

Does this make more sense, 0311, becasue I feel like you thought I was saying use the over-over until your fingers fall off Trust me, if I had been standing there next to him, he would have hit that PR!
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  #18  
Old 04-15-2008, 01:23 PM
Darkhorse Darkhorse is offline
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Well, that sums up the problems with these forums then. I'm not around here more than once or twice a day and don't go reading anyone's journals aside from TALO since we're doing the same diet. I took the grip failure as something reoccuring.. I don't go do backstories and read journals to help people lol, cause to be honest, I apparently know what works best for one person, bigtime.

I have nothing against getting stronger w/ the grip, BUT, if it's sapping away strength (which was the way I took it) vs. it being a one time issue, then yeah, I'd stand by my advice and say to work on your grip after you benefited from the heaviness.

Again, I personally don't use a double o grip because I don't feel the need. I do everything without straps except for barbell rows. Even rack deadlifts I go north of 550+ for 5-7 reps w/ an over under and chalk. Bearing all that in mind, that's why I don't really like posting a lot of specific advice on the forum which I've really gotten away from anyways. I don't know the whole story about where people are at, so my advice honestly is a shot in the dark.

Sometimes my advice would appear flawed, or not according to Joe Blow over at bb.com or the latest book off the press, but that's not to say its wrong. Instead of quoting scripture, I try to choose the path of least resistance. In other words, without going through a questionare via pm, if someone asks advice about something like Max-OT, I'm not about to go tell him to hop aboard what everyone else is doing and "sets of 5" your bench skyward vs. telling him the split is fine, just don't go more than two days in a row.
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  #19  
Old 04-15-2008, 01:24 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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I haven't really read any backstory on Rob's grip. I'm just going by the wording of what he said and my confidence that it's a pretty good approach for the most part. I wouldn't give any type of general advice that I think could be potentially harmfull. And yes, I'm going by generalities based on the average guy...which means most people will need to always be training grip or they will fail or depend on straps. On average, I'd say 250 to 300 has people struggling on average.

Actually I think I should explain the logical reason why over-under is a bit easier than over-over, and why over-over trains your grip.

The problem with the barbell is rotation. When you grip it over-over it rolls toward the ends of your fingers...the weakest link. Countering that rolling is difficult and even then you end up holding on more with your fingers than gripping it in your palm.

This is actually why plate pinches help so much (and they help a lot). Because they train the palm to close down harder rather than always gripping things as it your fingers are a hook which is very limiting.

If you have ever used a trap bar you will notice that you can hold onto more weight easily with it. Because those cross ways hand holds do away with the bar rolling.

When your switch to and over-under you are counteracting the bar rolling because the one hand is promoting a different direction than the other...so it helps to cancel it out. But that means that it is less taxing, and so ulimately less of a training effect, for your grip supporting strength. This is for those people who have never used over-over. Otherwise you would have noticed all this.
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  #20  
Old 04-15-2008, 01:35 PM
Darkhorse Darkhorse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobS
it is frustrating b/c this is not the first time this has happened,
There's where I got confused. I took what he said literally LOL. Ah well, see you guys in a few days!
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