i don't have much experience, to tell you the truth i'm a beginner, i'm trying to make sense of these programs and definitions included, i totally understand where your coming from and will start my own thread :biglaugh: lol
thx

Good. These adaptations theories are still being fleshed out but some of the explanations I think lead beginners or others to think that they need to go right to loading on a 4 week or 6 week basis in this will result in greater "fitness". So it's either your using 'single factor' and 'riding the supercompensation wave' and that's inferior or your using 'dual factor' and loading for weeks and that's superior. Nobody comes out and says that, it's just the implied message.

If your at HIT fellow. Then your riding that wave. If you'e not waiting around for so called full recovery to take place but you're stucturing you program in a way to manage fatigue, guess what, you're using two factor theory. What changes is the time frame.

You can't say two different adaptaion models or both correct in every way. Either dual factor is the way it works or General Adaptation or Supercompensation is the way. Their may be aspects of any theory that are correct and a later theory may expand on those things. But what it really comes down to is this...if your are "timing" your workouts to adhere to the supercompensation wave, your programming sucks.

A period of fatigue may be a couple of days. It may be a week. Or it may be a peoriod of several weeks. But it's all the same. What people have gotten mixed up is this confusing what is basically a way of periodizing for advanced lifters and saying that represents the application of a theory where other programs for less advanced lifters do not.

I am NOT saying I understand all this. I don't even know that I need to. There have been some good explanations in terms of the theory and it's application to advanced programming, but it still hasn't been fully "explained" in all it's implications to my satisfaction. I like Kelly Baggets simple explanation the best but even then what he is really explaining is long periods of fatigueing, overloading, or overreaching (whatever you want to call it) and then recovery and and peaking. That is a manisfestation of the theory but not the theory itself.

In any case, Medium, you need to look for a beginner's program.

You don't need to worry about whether it's single factor or dual factor at this point. There are programs all laid out for various stages of training. But basically if you can hit PR's for long periods of time on a shorter 'cycle' then I say do that.

My friend, 0311, once referred to 'single factor' as "perpetual 5x5 loading". For me doing various permutations of intermediate (so-called single factor) 5x5's there were times when I was basically building up for three weeks and then progressing forward for up to 7 weeks, hitting new weekly PR's for a substantial percentage of that time!....no perpetual loading in that at all. Basically I was "loading" for a week and displaying those fitness gains every week rather than every month. I had no need to load for a longer period of time.

0311 posted this before but I don't think many people are actually reading through it: Madcow's Writeups

Everybody REALLY REALLY needs to read though this to get a general overview of all this. Not just the programs. ALL of it.

I can't edit my post anymore but...

I wasn't trying to say that two-factor or fitness-fatigue isn't at work in HIT. Of course it is.

I like what I read here. My aim is to put on mass. I'm at 10% bodyfat. I notice there are alot of variations of the 5x5. Who should be using the basic version and who should be going for the variation/split, like Kane's?

If you have not had any experience with 5x5 start with the basic program as that will get you used to the program while giving you some real good gains. After running through the program you can then go to a variation like Kane for even more growth. If you start with too advanced a program too soon and too heavy you could stall out and get discouraged. Personally, I would start with the basics. Either way enjoy and good luck. :weights:

Good.


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http://bodybuilding-routines.net

putting in Olympic lifts.
 

I've been reading the Bill Starr DF 5x5 training programs and Mark Rippetoe's programs about Olympic lifts.

I've been thinking, and I would like to ramp up my clean power so I can clean 225 for 5x5. Then take that and try and build more endurance on top of it, but that's another story.

My question is for the Bill Starr DF 5x5 program he states,..
Does this mean if I'm going to incorporate Power cleans I have to also incorporate High Pulls or can I have Deads and Cleans? I don't mind doing High Pulls because it does help with Cleans I just don't want my Deads to go down in weight.
OR
Should I use a different workout that would incorporate OL better? I havent' got a chance to read on Glenn Pendlay's routines so I don't know if his would be better or Bill's.

Good question. Personally, if I don't work my deadlifts for a month, they really never decrease very drastically, especially if you're doing powercleans and squats in your routine. Matter of fact, it's a very good idea to drop them for a mesocycle if you've been doing them for so long without a break.

You're correct about high pulls being incorperated to increase your powercleans. That's why they're there. High pulls will work the beginning of your clean before the catch. If you're already strong with it, then it's up to you. IMO, if you've been deadlifting a lot lately, it may be a good switch that'll really bring up your clean.

You can certainly take what both are saying and make something that won't get in the way of your BJJ training. Oftentimes, three full body's are super tough with that layout. There's no way I could do that anymore with the weight I'm moving!

Nothing wrong with making the routine into an four day with lower volume per day. That's what I'm basically doing and it's far and away MUCH better for me. For example, instead of doing Day 2's workout [front squats, ohp's, pullups, and deadlifts], you can cut that down to pullups, curls, and deadlifts.. And those deadlifting numbers will skyrocket as you're not wearing yourself out with all the other exercises... Especially cutting down the mental strain of fitting everything in.

Something along these lines Dave:

Monday: Pullups; Curls; Powercleans

Wednesday: Bench (1x5 Pyramid); Shoulder Iso; Triceps press or Extensions

Friday: High Pulls; Squats

Sunday: Bench (5x5 static); OHP's; ect

Everything still remains 5x5 except for possibly the powercleans (3-5 x 3) as well as the biceps and triceps (which should be repetition).

Thanks 0311. I'm coming up on my "off season", so to speak, so I want to build up on strength and some size before I have to do more endurance work. I might run a regular DF 5x5 with Deads and then run it again with the Cleans and High pulls, see how my body handles the substitution, and then try out the 4 day split. But I haven't made my mind up yet. The 4 day split is very appealing.

I do something similiar and it still takes me over an hour to finish lol. Especially on my "rows and squats" day in which that's all I do with a static weight!