Bodybuilding.net - Bodybuilding Forum

Thanks for the tips

Don't really know that I gave tips so much as something to chew on.

As for the squats and such, I would suggest you read up on some WSBB squatting "how to" articles. I think that most people would be much better off learning how to squat in a powerlifting style than squatting "intuitively" since most people are pretty hosed up in their natural form. Same thing goes for bench pressing and dead lifting as well. For whatever reason the path of least resistance on these exercises seems to be the path of least mechanical advantage and worst joint positioning.

^^^Why in the world should most people learn to squat powerlifting style? So they can have bad mobility and thus add to their potential feet and knee problems? Most people can learn to back squat and maybe front squat properly and get HEALTHIER. It is MUCH easier for a person who does an "olympic" squat, or at least a squat that has the basic tenets of that and perhaps a fairly deep front squat to then later on learn a powerlfiting squat and have that as a part of their training as well. As well as overhead squats, etc.. But for someone to LEARN to squat "powerlifting style" to switch over to ANYTHING that requires decent mobility is MUCH more difficult. And if you have any kind of weird knee issues, foot issues, etc... the last thing you want to comprimise is mobility.

Look at it this way...you could see plenty of succesful weightlifters becoming successful powerlifters but you won't hardly ever see any succesful powerlifters becoming sucessful weightlifters.

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
or
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Your generalizations are lost on me. I'm not at all certain where you are getting your perspective from.

As for weight lifters being good powerlifters and not the other way... well, maybe. But I wouldn't say it has anything to do with the way they learned to squat.

Your average Olympic lifter has an above average flexibility and strength due to the requirements of the sport. They also posess an amazing amount of power and speed. So taking these guys from a very technical lift to a pretty straghtforward lift would be easy enough. Not to mention they already pull from the floor and squat, so the minor variations in form wouldn't be hard to overcome. The only real variable that will change is the amount of weight and where the stress is placed.

Take your typical powerlifter and they are simply not geared for explosive lifts after training away from that for so long. Add in a focus on heavy partials and limited ROM's and I think that what you get is a lot of low end torque and not much performance. You end up being how you train, if I can be pretty simplistic about it. So you give that powerlifter a bar and tell him to snatch and hell yes he is going to be terrible. Whole new movement, not used to catching, etc. So your generalization that this has to do with the type of squatting is wrong. It is the type of TRAINING that causes the differences in performance.

Now take a strongman competitor like Mikhail Koklyaev. He comes from an Olympic lifting background, and does pretty well in competition.

But then you have guys like Bennedict Magnusson, Brian Siders, Mark Phillipi and so on that come from powerlifting and are athletic and fast just like Koklyaev. Why? Because they train for it. Form follows function, my friend.

As for the powerlifting squat being a ROM limiting lift, that would be a choice made by the individual. There is no reason you can't do a wide base hip break squat onto a low box, or drop below parallel. The box I squat off of is a good 2-3" below parallel for me.

Why should they learn to squat this way? Well, first of all it engages the strongest muscle groups in the squat better than a high bar or front squat. Keep in mind that I never said anything about people NOT using alternate forms of the squat. Also, I would have to disagree with you about a front squat being better on the knees. I get absolutely no knee pressure in a powerlifting squat. However, since I also snatch and clean and front squat, I can tell you that there is significant stress put on the knee in an Olympic squat variation (overhead, front) by comparison. Now, I'm not saying it is career ending, knee wrecking stress, but the pressure is greater. And if you look at the position of either squat you can pretty clearly see what the difference is. Knees out over toes in an Oly version and shins vertical (or close to it) on powerlifting.

as for feet... well, most people don't have the ankle mobility to take an Olympic lift into the hole. They will almost always pop up on the forefoot. Hence, Oly lifting shoes have a pretty good heel in them, compared to a powerlifting shoe, which will be flatter by comparison... like Chuck Taylors. Flat feet for either variation should cause the same pronation with the knees knocking in. One would not be superior to the other in those regards.

Not to highjack but what is the exact differences between a "muscle up" and a snatch, if any? I'm not expert at snatches so I dont' really know.

IronWorker

Generalizations? LOL, I haven't even read all of Andrew's post and I had to stop at that. You want to get into specifics I'll be happy to go to town with the OP but there is NOTHING general about anything I said. On the contrary your advice was entirely general and has nothing whatsoever to do with the issues at hand.

The fact that you don't understand why what I said was not general I don't care about. What I do care about is the fact that you are expressing nothing more than your personal preference and prejudices as specific advice and then trying to accuse ME of generalizations.

Everything I said has to DO with training, Andrew. How can it not be. The problem is you think EVERY problem that can arise with our body is congenital. Or at least you seem to. I think you are out of your depth when it comes to kinematics and kineseology and you probably should do some more research before you get holier than thou anymore.

When it comes to issues at the feet you have to know where the issues arive from before you can just start spouting stuff about "path of least resistance" whatever in the world that means. Are we talking about fallen arches? Are we talking congenital flat feet? In any case the health of the foot is related to the relationships of mobility and stability (in a relative sense) from the ground up.

There also could be overactive, tight muscles, say the gastrocs and other weak muscles...maybe the glutes.

There could be problems all the way up to the neck related to someones flat feet. Telling a person with flat feet to purposely train in a way that limits their range of motion at the ankles and hips is not going to help them with their feet but only accacerbate the issue.

Form follows function? Form is "shape". So what does that have to do with flat feet here? I still can't believe the whole generalization comment, lol. So Mark Phillipi's athleticism has something to do with how someone should deal with flat feet? I'm lost. Your need to make powerlifting into something more than what it is is counterproductive. In fact is is not my intention to make olympic lifting into something else. What I am talking about are mobility versus stability and how that might relate to feet and knee issues. Just to make a GENERAL comment about such and such squat being hard on the knees is just an "everyone knows" dogmatic statement. All squatting can be bad for the knees depending on so many factors you need a book. I have a few I could recommend....

In any case when it comes to these issues I will recommend mobility before stability. A strong posterior chain is a must have for anyone. A stable lower back is a must have. But isolate those factors and you have simply opened the way to worse knee, or ankle, or foot problems.

Of course you don't get any pressure on the knees in a powerlifting squat. There is no deep knee bend to speak of. One could argue, if one wanted, that there is no "squat" without a deep knee bend. What does powerlfiting have to do with? Powerlifting. You think powerlifters who are specifically concerned with furthering themselves in their sport care about all the philisophical things like "form and function" then ask a few. They care about numbers on their three lifts. Period. As I've said before, most people take training way too personally and it is more about what they LIKE when it comes to giving advice.

The idea that an olympic lifter has an "average" flexibility....

Flexiblility is the ability of a muscle to elongate. So I'd say that the average olympic lifter probably has an above average flexibility. But these issues are related to mobility. Flexibility plays into that but mobility is simple the movement in a joint or group of joints. And THAT is related, again, to stability. So anybody that looks at an olympic lifter and can't see that they possess mobility and stability that is well ABOVE average doesn't know much about mobility and stability. It isn't about how many pounds on the bar you can move when is comes to these issues. That is powerlifting. By the same token I am only using olympic lifting as an example from which cues can be taken...not as a lifestyle statement.

You mentioned a bunch of names. No doubt you would say, based on your opinions, that these guys are all "stronger" than the late, great Paul Anderson. And that is defintely a matter of perpspective. In terms of "strength, mobility, and stability" he is far and above all of those guys. That would be the model I would point to when it comes to knees turning in and feet being flat.

You do realize that mobility can be trained for. Most NOBODY has the natural ankle mobility to do a deep olympic squat. In fact if they had that kind of almost hypermobility to start with they would almost certainly lack stability. I never used to have the ankle and hip mobility to do a deep squat. I certainly have it now. We are not doomed to a lack of mobility, lol, especially given the fact that there is not need for everyone to gain the type of mobility that we see in most olympic lifters.

Since he is "in the now" let's take Michael Phelps as an example. He is hyperflexible pretty much in his entire body. Now he obviously has the stability and core endurance to maintain body position in a swimming stance but that is with NO LOAD on the body. It may be logical to assume he posseses all sorts of mobility with which to do a deep squat given the instuction but I would put him under a heavy bar becasue he most certainly would lack the stability. Why is that related and specific to the subject at hand? Because it COMES DOWN TO mobility/stability.

So based on your advice, what does it have to do with flat feet. Well, you have taken a chicken first egg second standpoint. And I mean in terms of your specific statement from your first post and your ideas about the posterior chain, and the statement about pronation and internally rotating knees. I’ll quote Cressey to illustrate what this will lead too:

“rounded shoulders, forward head posture, exaggerated kyphosis, anterior pelvic tilt, excessive lordosis, internally rotated femurs, and externally rotated, flat feet.”

Yep. Kind of weird that you shoulders and neck even have something to do with you knees and feet. But it’s true.

So, OTIS, this comes down to the question I mentioned before. Is this structural or functional. Have you always had this problem and thus it is because of the shape of the foot? That would mean orthotics are the answer. If this is something that came about later, hower, it is probably functional.

From a functional standpoint, you need to determine if you have weakness in a decelerator elsewhere that's forcing the extra pronation in order to compensation. The external rotators of the hip (especially the gluteus maximus) and quadriceps are notable possibilities. Don't forget the dorsiflexors, either.

I think a good thing for you to read would be the “Neanderthal No More” series of articles by Eric Cressey and Mike Robertson. http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459379 That might help with assessing some of these problems.

You probably should see a specialist of course and try to determine any structural problems.

I think that is SPECIFIC enough, for now

This part I have to address specifically:

HUh? I'm talking about the flat feet and internally rotated femurs and what that has to do with squatting. Bro, sorry, but you're the only one being general here.

Well, honestly I won't even begin to reply to your (again) self defense fest. Wasn't attacking you, I voiced my opinion based on my experience, my understanding of how things work and the anecdotal evidence of most people I know. Go back and read the thread again... I was minding MY business and you were the one who jumped in on me, Eric. I again gave my point of view and somehow you feel I stole your birthday?

Not for nothing, but this is the internet. I'm not interested in seeing who has the biggest cock, I'm a big boy, I know where I stand. If the OP doesn't want to listen to me, or questions what I say, that is fine with me. My experience and attitude won't ring true with everyone, but that is the joy of this forum... I get to speak my mind regardless of your dislike for it. You bring one limited set of experiences, I bring another limited set of experiences. Last time I checked I was only human and so were you. Nobody here has all the answers. I know that of myself, and if you read my posts I never say that it is my way or the highway.

Now I think I've wasted just about enough time on you for one day.

To again voice my opinion...

I would say that if you have imbalances or mobility issues, then trying to correct that by squatting is probably a poor idea. Powerlifters tend to address these issues by doing prehab movements, and I know that Louis Simmons and Dave Tate are big supporters of bringing up weaknesses to support main lifts.

Hence, my original post about barefoot training to strengthen the muscles of the foot. That would be a prime example of one possibility in this great world (certainly not the only possibility) to address fallen arches by some means other than orthotics.

I am DISAGREEING with your advice. I thought it was bad advice. You came back with a rebuttal saying I was being general and I explained why you were wrong. Let's not get personal. I simply think you are wrong and I explained very specifically why. I don't care about being disagreed with buy if you can't take having your views questioned, then who is being personal?

So, I am perplexed by your characterization of me as "being defensive". Do you see that if there was any attack on my part, I attacked your views. I then DEFENDED my views. I wasn't defending myself against personal attack, I was backing up my views. I actually see very little point in endless arguments on the net but that is why I pick my battles.

By the way, in case it isn't obvious the "holier than thou" comment was directed at the characterizations of my post as "generalizations". In other words, until we get into specifics with an OP, ANYONE can be accused of generalization. But you can be sure that every comment I made had the issue at hand at it's heart.

If you give advice to someone then ANYONE has the right to jump on your advice if they see the need to. Get over it. If you can't defend your posts, fine. If you see the need to get the last word in, fine. Most of us will simply stop posting after a while. I can disagree with you without disliking you. But don't assume that everybody knows who to listen to. You say something in an authoritative enough sounding way, and people will take it as gospel, regrardless whether it is right or wrong. If I think someone's advice could be detrimental to another person then I will post away with a rebuttal or a question. You will have your view challenged. It is not self-defense. This is a FORUM. Not a personal soapbox. Debates will happen. That is the end of it for me in this thread. If you want your posts to just stand in isolation without being subject to counter-arguments then a blog with the comments turned off would be the answer.

I certainly don't have all the answers which is why I began to point the op in directions where I think the answers may lie. My intention is NOT to be the last word but to stimulate discussion.

Let's keep the disrespectful comments to a minimum. I don't feel I am wasting my time discussing training issues with anyone.

PM sent.

For the last post you just made. You're simply missing the point. You are talking about an end-run around the problem that can in the future accacerbate the problem. That is what I am disagreeing with. I agree with it not being a good idea to adress mobility with squatting. Let me make that clear. I AGREE. Which is why I said mobility first but then it must be maintained and not undermined by further imbalance.

Again, you made a particular statement and I responded to that statement alone. There was nothing personal in it about my opinion of your knowledge and experience at large.

Let's keep on target. I've had interesting disussions that lasted for pages where we never quite came to an agreement but at least came to understand each other's point of view. Ask Darkhorse, haha, we are still great freinds. And I never disregard. I can't count the number of times I've come back to someone and ended up being in agreement with them down the road.

me and eric are now buddies. we once disagreed on some things.