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  #21  
Old 08-15-2008, 01:51 PM
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^^^ actually, same goes for me....
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  #22  
Old 08-15-2008, 01:51 PM
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Last time I checked I was only human and so were you.
I thought you were robots!?!

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  #23  
Old 08-18-2008, 06:53 AM
Andrew.cook Andrew.cook is offline
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Fine, let me try to get my point across then.

Why should MOST people take up a powerlifting style? Well, simply put I think that the sport of powerlifting has disected and analyzed the squat in a way that few other sports have (Oly lifting would be a close second but since the squat is not an Oly lift, it is almost always viewed in context of the whole, either a snatch or a C & J.

Now, that being said, powerlifting has prescribed a squat that puts all of your most powerful muscles in play, removes a lot of potential for injury by stressing correct form (though I realize this is only correct in the sense that it meets the standards that WSBB has created). While I think that there is some potential for error and injury, I believe that if coached well, or even if someone were to read and comprehend the instructions (chest high, elbows down, feet wide, start with a hip break, sitting back or "reaching back", shins vertical, spread the floor with your feet, push the knees out, drive the hips through) the true risk for developing some reduced mobility or increased potential for injury are as minimal as they could be.

Do I view all injury as originating from a congenital issue? No, but it certainly seems to me that if you didn't do something stupid, then the other answer always comes back to some genetic characteristic that started the person with a propensity towards injury. In the case of flat feet, I'm not sure that it is congenital so much as years of detraining. Of course there will always be people that are simply built wrong for powerlifting squats, or squatting in general.

The other factors that would have me teach this method FIRST, before moving on to something more complex, like an overhead squat or a front squat, is that the concepts are pretty simple, and you can effectively utilize some additional methodologies like box squatting right off the bat. Most people can maintain a tight lumbar back when learning to squat in the WSBB method (perhaps it is a little general of me to say that all powerlifters use that method). I have found the opposite to be true when using a high bar/front squat. The real reason for this is that most people that I have watched seem to have a lot of lower back rounding once they get too deep into the squat. I believe that Crossfit terms this "a lack of squat maturity" and it is something that goes away with time and practice, but why jump into that when you can start on a squat form that most people will handle more weight with, can maintain proper lower back form with and still gives the same overall desired effect (assuming you are of the "squat big and get big" camp)?

Like I said before, or was trying to point out, I think that most of the idea that powerlifters are immobile comes from watching your typical super heavy lumber around. Chances are that once you are that big and have been working on lockout partials for so long you will start to develop some reduced mobility simply because those guys don't stay stretched out (as a generality) and don't worry about full ROM for the most part. But as I was trying to point out, you see powerlifters with 900+lb squats coming over to strongman, and these guys are agile and atheletic. They have to have a full ROM in order to compete as strongman has even wider ROM than Oly lifting (less focus on speed and form for the most part as pros are sickeningly strong and form is not really a disqualifying factor).

So in an ideal training sequence (if I were training someone, which I have done and still do from time to time) I would start with the powerlifting variations of movements and then turn over to other variations with time. Front squats would be my second choice, or possibly hip squats as that would hit the same muscles without the stress on the back. Nobody can stick with one lift forever, and WSBB guys have keyed in on that pretty well. So of course you would never have someone stick to one lift for the entire length of their lifting career. But the powerlifting squat would be one that I would start with and revisit frequently as a baseline for true strength.
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew.cook View Post
Now, that being said, powerlifting has prescribed a squat that puts all of your most powerful muscles in play, removes a lot of potential for injury by stressing correct form (though I realize this is only correct in the sense that it meets the standards that WSBB has created). While I think that there is some potential for error and injury, I believe that if coached well, or even if someone were to read and comprehend the instructions (chest high, elbows down, feet wide, start with a hip break, sitting back or "reaching back", shins vertical, spread the floor with your feet, push the knees out, drive the hips through) the true risk for developing some reduced mobility or increased potential for injury are as minimal as they could be.
No way, man...I completely disagree with that. The PL squat has nothing to do with mobility - it is all about lifting the heaviest weight with the least ROM. Have you ever seen the 1000+ lbs squats? Are you telling me that they have high mobility? One of the big guys who does full ROM squats is Mike Tuscherer (sp?) but he is one in a many. IMO it also has high injury potential because it causes massive wear and tear of the hips.

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Originally Posted by AC
The other factors that would have me teach this method FIRST, before moving on to something more complex, like an overhead squat or a front squat, is that the concepts are pretty simple, and you can effectively utilize some additional methodologies like box squatting right off the bat.

Actually, I am currently training 4 people right now and I had them all start out with mobility work from Eric Cressey's book. After almost 3 weeks of mobility work (and what I now know to be also "Stability work") all four of them are doing OH Squats much better than I ever have. None of them know how to back-squat properly but they can each do OH Squats and Front Squats with near to perfect form. Given they are all newbies to lifting I believe that having them start out with form drills, etc and then moving onto complex exercises like these is better because otherwise they would be in the same boat as me: I can do a squat properly but an OH Squat is damn difficult. Why? Because I haven't trained it first. However, had I trained myself the OH Squat first, the back squat would've been a zilch.
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  #25  
Old 08-18-2008, 02:51 PM
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But that is just it, you look at the back squat and say it causes a reduced mobility, it doesn't. That is the same line of thinking that has people thinking that if their knees come forward over their toes in a squat they will suddenly pop out and bounce around the room... or some other tragedy. I would say that the reduced mobility in powerlifters is because they are simply big freaking guys. Being obese is likely to reduce mobility, but I know that Dave Tate and Louis Simmons are always talking about targeting weak points, prehab movements and such. They clearly recognize that you can't walk into a gym, squat a few singles and then hope to be healthy. With their influence the days of the fat and cumbersome powerlifter that can't even walk up stairs without sweating out a half pound of bacon grease is going away.

Keep in mind too that it isn't the lift itself that is hard on the hips, it is the lift PLUS the weight these guys are handling. Your hips are strong, and for most beginners I would say that back squatting with 135 to even 400lbs isn't going to automatically cause undue wear and stress on the hips. It isn't that simple. Get a few years of 600+lb squats under your belt and no matter what you do it is going to cause extra stress. I can tell you now that I don't know any professional strongmen or powerlifters that have not had some kind of injury to deal with. Why? because lifting heavy stuff is a serious burden on your body. Lifting what your typical gym goer lifts is not. You can't compare the stress of a 900+lb squat in a suited scenario to a 350lb back squat without, they aren't the same animal. I would even go so far as to say that you can't compare a 400lb back squat to a 300lb back squat. Again, that is my experience. When I have been bench press minded, I can tell you that getting my bench press up over 300lbs is not a big deal. Getting it to 350 is considerably more work, and getting it to 400+ is absolutely gut wrenching amounts of work, dedication and stress. as I have never reached 425, I can only imagine the exponential amount of time and effort it would take to get there.

One last thing I would say about your squatting group, I would say that for the average gym member, your plan may be effective. What I mean by that is for those people where size and strength are more of an afterthought to "getting tone" it probably makes some sense to take it easy with them. But I have never trained that type. I train with football players, MMA guys, strongmen, and people that I would generally view as "dedicated to size and strength." To have them detrain by learning overhead squats would not be time well spent. To teach them how to squat more weight right off the bat with a form tweak would make good sense. From there they can move on to good mornings, front squats, deep box squats, high bar squats, whatever... but as I said, the standard powerlifting squat by virtue of its test of strength would be my staple. It would be the starting point that I would use, and it would be the benchmark I would utilize to show improved strength and performance.

I'm not saying you are wrong, Anuj or Eric, I'm just saying these are the reasons I would not fear I was doing someone a disservice by getting them to learn a solid back squat.

Arguing which type of squat you should teach first is like arguing whether a routine should be full body or body part, or whether you should use DB's or BB's. You can skin that cat any old way you would like, and in the end you would be foolish to rule out any useable tool.
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