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Alright since eric basically answered everything, theres nothing for me to say. I just want to ask you how you like 17-hd my friend gave me a few pills to try, get great pumps from it. Just curious what you experience from it long time 25 days+, if you like it or not, etc.

Ok let me post this and tell you guys just how dumb I can be... this has to be one of the all time winners for beginner mistakes...ready... Ok let me understand that a "rep" is one time up and one time down withe weight correct? simple huh...and a "set" is a giver number of reps, so far so good right?. well no...I been doing it all wrong, I been killing my self thinking i was doing it right...heres what I was doing for the last 5 months... I'll use bench press as an example warm up then do 5 -10 reps 5 times and call that 1 set then do that 5 times there were morning I was doing 150 reps on the bench not to even mention the squats, dead lifts, barbell curls, and rows... I think this may be part of the reason for being so tired. as for the 17 HD, I like it. I started the routine you (Eric) re-posted from 0311's original post on wednesday I really like this routine I feel like there is a direction to the workouts now, now if I can learn to count to 5 all by self I probably won't feel so tired. i started eating 6 times a day, its not so bad one you start to tink about what your gonna have to eat for the day.

Oh, snap! Talk about overtraining. Certainly does explain the name of this post . You should be amazed then at how well you progress given a more appropriate volume and higher intensity for the frequency you were using. That along with the diet should have you saying "damn this is simple."

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

verbatimreturned,
it's ok I like it. I fell more pumped when taking it, I have been off it for about 2 weeks now, I know I was doing something wrong with my work out but wasn't sure what, now that I know I was beating my self to death. I was thinking the sups weren't working but its not them its me, so now I will start over with a fresh attitude, I have another bottle I start ina week or so. I have not noticed anythin bad about the 17 HD, I did ask the manager at GNC if it was a steriod he said no but cycle it 30 days on and 30 off. I showed it to my neighbor who is a Rn she read the ingredients and thinks its a very mild steroid.
Frank

I just can't beleive how stupid I was for not seeing it for so long, after all that this week should be an easy work out LOL

Yeah, should be refreshing, lol. Like I said start out moderately and build on it. You can use bigger increments later if you feel like you are severly undershooting but if you get carried away it will limit the length of time you can progress in the long run.

If you plateau on one exercise but not on all there are several things you can do to get it moving again until you have stopped progressing on everything for a while.

Thanks I really appreciate the support, by the way I started to keep a log on Wednesday when I started the program you suggested
Frank

Lol, well not at least you will have a faster workout Pretty interesting, on the 17HD, I experienced the same things when I used it for a good 3 4 days. If it was cheaper I would probably buy it. Just incase you plan on buying more of it, you can get it online ALOT cheaper than at GNC.

I'll have to look into it, my daughter was working at GNC and getting a 30% discount on purschases. she was really getting some good deals, she got me a 32 LB bag of Gold Seal whey protein isolate that was damaged (small tear) being unloaded from the truck a $99.00 dollar value... she got it free. gonna miss her not working there anymore.

Made it thru the week with the revised work out, felt like I didn't do much of anything, I did add 10 Lbs to the bench, 20 Lbs to squats and dead lift, so I'll keep going like this for a couple months and see what happens
Frank