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train smart program?



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  #1  
Old 08-04-2006, 11:29 AM
knig22 knig22 is offline
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Default train smart program?

http://bodybuilding.ultimatefatburne...ain-smart.html

has anyone ever heard of the train smart program in the link?
my friend was explaining it to me as doing more weight on lifts but shorter distances. So as far as I understood it it was like doing like a 3 inch bench press with double the weight you would use on 6 inches of movement

I dont really understand it that well but i was wondering if any of you guys had ever heard of it.... I'm personally quite suspicious of it but i dont have anything ot back it up
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  #2  
Old 08-04-2006, 12:23 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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STAY away from it. It's bullshit. You would get gains on it if you were an absolute beginner and anyone can benefit doing partial reps for certain things once in a while but you're right to be suspicious.

Pete Sisco is basically a Mike Mentzor guy except he believes you only need to do anything in the strongest range of motion or even just do isometric stuff i.e. "max contraction". He asserts that these partial range movements transfer in some huge percentage to full range strength for like 100% of trainers and that you automatically get more growth simply because you are pushing more weight (but only for a couple inches).

He also believes in the HIT mentality of complete recovery, blah, blah, blah and says that the longer we train the more time we need for recovery!

Honestly most everything he says is assinine. In the first book, Power Factor training he and his co-author had some ridiculous method of choosing the "best" exercise based on what produced the highest "power factors" and "power index" (an equation he came up with) so, lo and behold, the legg press is a "better" exercies than the barbell back squat (and if you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you).

Well, I could go on but hopefully you get the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisco
"In physics, moving a 100-pound weight 12 inches is the same amount of work as moving a 200 pounds 6 inches. Both of the above examples are also equal to moving a 400 pound weight 3 inches".
He would go on to extrapolate probably that it would also be the same as simply holding a 500 pound weight or something. I don't know much about physics but I think distance comes into it. I would also point out that we are not robots. When it comes to training there is the "law of specificity" or as coaches say "you only improve what you practice".

You lift at the top portion of a bench press and most of your improvement comes in that portions of the lift. This is PRECISELY why powerlifters use floor presses, board presses, pin presses, etc. They want to improve strength along a certain portion such as "the lockout". It is NOT because they think it's gonna make them better at the bottom of the lift.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Last edited by EricT; 08-04-2006 at 12:32 PM.
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  #3  
Old 08-04-2006, 06:07 PM
knig22 knig22 is offline
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haha yeah i imagined that most of it was full of crap... I was just wondering what you guys had to say about it because you all have a better grasp of strength training than me. thanks... now i get to make fun of my friend for using it
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  #4  
Old 08-04-2006, 06:56 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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LOL, well if he's just starting out then don't make fun of him to bad...after all at least he's doing SOMETHING, and most people don't.

And as far as the partial reps part of it keep in mind that I am not sayng that partials are completely useless only that his premise of partials being the only way you'll ever have to train is. Some people claim that they get full transfer from partial to full range (a very few people and it's hard to know their training experience).

Here is a basic rule to live by when it comes to training programs....if you see the word "REVOLUTIONARY" that can directly translate to "BULLSHIT".
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  #5  
Old 08-05-2006, 10:48 AM
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ChinPieceDave667 ChinPieceDave667 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisco
"In physics, moving a 100-pound weight 12 inches is the same amount of work as moving a 200 pounds 6 inches. Both of the above examples are also equal to moving a 400 pound weight 3 inches".
this is what happens when people fall asleep in physics class. This only works for linear movement. There is not one movement in any exercise that you will ever do that is "linear". everything is an angle of something and the muscles in the body are not at maximal strength at every step of the way. If that was the case then do a set of curls with this logic and you won't be able to move the bar from rest position if you where to quadruple the load and only lift it a 4th of the way or what ever is "logic" is.
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  #6  
Old 08-05-2006, 10:57 AM
EricT EricT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
There is not one movement in any exercise that you will ever do that is "linear". everything is an angle of something and the muscles in the body are not at maximal strength at every step of the way.
Hell yeah. You see this kind of pseudoscience all the time. Basically people make up their mind what they want things to be like. Then they oversimplify biomechanics to make the data fit. Then they throw in what sounds like science to support it all.
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  #7  
Old 08-05-2006, 11:27 AM
EricT EricT is offline
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Power Factor Training
Does it Really Work?

By: George Chen

Power Factor Training is a resistance training system that claims to take the guess work out of training by effectively quantifying muscular intensity and the muscle-stimulating benefits of any workout. The developers claim that two indices, the power factor and power index, can be used by athletes to determine the selection of exercises, weights, sets, and reps that will produce maximum results for them (8). If these claims are true, the many existing styles of resistance training can be compared head-to-head in an objective manner. It can also lead to innovations in designing new training systems which may be even more effective than those existing.

PHYSIOLOGY

Power and work output are believed to be important parameters that can stimulate muscular hypertrophy. The developers of Power Factor training defined two parameters based on the mechanical definition of power to aid athletes in designing their workouts (8):

Power factor (PF): A measurement of the intensity of muscular overload during an exercise

Power Factor = Weight / Time

Weight = Total amount weight lifted in lbs (from multiple reps)

Time = Total time in minutes

Power Index (PI): A measurement of the duration of a given power factor

Power Index = (Weight^2) / Time * 10^(-6)

= Weight * Power Factor * 10^(-6)

Power Factor training is based on the concept of progressive overload. Athletes record these power indices for each workout and strive to increase these indices on subsequent workouts. For example, to increase their power factor, they can attempt to lift more total weight in the same period of time or the same amount of weight in a shorter period of time. To increase their power index, they need to sustain a given power factor for a longer period of time by possibly doing additional sets.

From these power indices, the developers noted that certain types of training and exercises tend to produce higher power factors and indices for most trainers. These styles of training form the cornerstone of their system. Partial reps are recommended because they increase the number of reps that can be performed in a given period of time. Furthermore, these partials are performed in their strongest range of motion to allow the heaviest weights to be used. Compound exercises (exercises that involve multi-joint movements) are preferred over isolation exercises because more weight can be used. However, the developers encourage the athletes to experiment for themselves to fine tune the best plan for them since each person is different (8).

Expectation: I don't expect Power Factor training to be effective because it over simplifies certain biomechanical factors both in the definition of the power indices and in their use in tailoring workouts for maximum effectiveness.

EVALUATION

Their definition of the power factor oversimplifies the definition of mechanical power by neglecting the distance the weight is lifted. Mechanical power is defined to be the force (F) exerted on an object multiplied by the distance (D) the object traveled divided by the time (T) of force application (5).

Power = Force * Distance / Time

By neglecting distance (D) in their definition of the power factor, the developers have overestimated the value of partial reps in their training scheme since the weight moves over a shorter distance per rep.

Furthermore, their definition of the power factor only takes into account the forces exerted on the bar. Higher forces exerted on the bar does not automatically translate to higher muscular tension. Neglecting this fact, the developers have overestimated the value of compound exercises and strongest-range-of-motion exercises.** By definition, compound exercises work multiple muscle groups simultaneously, so the power generated is derived from multiple muscles. Therefore, the external power generated in a compound exercise should not be compared to that generated in an isolation exercise in which the power is derived primarily from a single muscle group. For example, the power generated from a squatting exercise contains strong contributions from the vastus, gluteus, and hamstring muscles. One cannot reasonably compare the power generated from a squat to that generated from a leg extension, derived mainly from the vastus.

The definition of the power factor also overestimates the value of strongest-range-of-motion exercises since muscular tension is often at a minimum in these ranges while most of the weight is supported by intersegmental joint loads. Therefore, more weight can be lifted in these ranges with the same or reduced muscular tension. For example, Power Factor training recommends athletes to perform partial reps in the final four inches of the squat movement near the lock out position. In this position, the legs are almost straight and relative less muscular force is needed to support any given amount of weight.

Beyond the problematic definition of the power factor and its application is the rationale of the definition itself. The power factor is defined to be the total weight lifted divided by the total time of lifting over multiple sets -- including rest time between sets and time spent lowering the weight where negative work is performed. In the realm of resistance training where high-powered anearobic exercise is the goal, this definition of power is less meaningful than peak instantaneous power during the concentric phase or even sustained power during a single set, before recovery time becomes a factor.

If their definition of power factor was valid as an indicator of training effectiveness, athletes should decrease their rest periods as much as possible without greatly affecting the power output during the set. However, in a study where two groups were trained for isokinetic strength, one with short (40 seconds) and one with long rest intervals (160 seconds), longer rest periods resulted in greater improvement in hamstring muscle strength (7). Without a doubt, the group resting only 40 seconds between sets generated a much higher power factor. However, training with shorter rest intervals was less effective probably because subjects fatigued on subsequent sets and were less capable of generating high instantaneous power.

A rationale for maximizing instantaneous power during the concentric phase can be made from the force-velocity property of muscle. At close to maximum isometric force, very little power is generated since the muscle can barely produce the force necessary to maintain its length. Similarly, near the muscle's maximum shortening velocity, very little power is generated because the force exerted is minimal. Typically, maximum power is generated at an intermediate load and speed between a quarter and a third of their maximal values (4). Indeed, a training strategy of lifting relative light loads (approximately 30% of maximum) in a weighted squat jump at high speeds achieved the best overall enhancement in dynamic athletic performance when compared with plyometric and traditional weight training (9). However, traditional weight training with heavy loads (80-90% of maximum) still produced the largest isometric strength gains. It is not known which training modality would have produced greater muscular hypertrophy since the study was only five weeks long, a period in which most strength gains are probably due to neural factors (1). Nonetheless, the relatively light power-maximizing load (about 30% of maximum) found effective for enhancing dynamic athletic performance is considerably lighter than the loads recommended to maximize the power factor.

However, one of the problems with attempting to maximize instantaneous power in traditional weight training exercises is that it cannot be achieved with a light weight without throwing the weight up in the air at the end of the motion. Note that the aforementioned study employed a squat jump as their maximum power stimulus. If the subjects attempted to use the same weight and were required to keep themselves on the ground, they could not have generated maximum power since they need to decelerate the bar to zero velocity at the end of each rep. For this reason, the weight that maximizes power during the concentric phases of most traditional weight training exercises is biased towards weights somewhat heavier than the theoretical 30% of maximum. There is evidence that maximizing the power generated during the concentric phase of a weight training exercise is an effective training stimulus even though the theoretical maximum power cannot be reached. Using a shoulder press exercise, it was determined that the weight which generated maximum power was somewhat higher than the theoretical 30% based on the force-velocity property of muscle. However, training with this weight at maximum speed still produced greater increases in strength and power output than with heavier weights at lower speeds (3).

More evidence for the maximum-instantaneous-power stimulus is found in studies where the experimental variable was the speed of lifting while lifting load was maintained. In these studies, more power is clearly generated at higher speeds, and a greater training effect would be expected at higher speeds. Indeed, this has been found to be the case in two studies. In the first study, one group performed barbell squats using a 2 second up, 2 second down tempo, while another group performed squats using a 1 second up, 1 second down tempo. The fast training group demonstrated greater training effects when tested with vertical jumps, long jumps, maximum squats, and isometric and isokinetic knee extensions (6). In another study in which one group trained with knee extensions at 60 deg/s (slow) and another at 300 deg/s (fast), the slow training group improved peak torque only at the trained velocity while the fast training group improved at both velocities.

Furthermore, only the fast training group demonstrated a significant enlargement of type II muscle fibers (2). These results suggest that the improvements in the slow group were primarily from neural factors while the improvements in the fast group can at least partially be attributed to muscular hypertrophy. These studies suggest that power output is an important training stimulus.

The power index, which is given proportionally less attention in the Power Factor training system, appears to be the developers' attempt to reconcile the fact that power factors decrease as workout length is increased. If power factor was the only index in the system, athletes would conclude that they should be performing only one set of each exercise. Thus, the developers defined the power index to be the power factor multiplied by the total weight lifted divided by a million to keep the large number manageable. This index biases the athlete to train with more volume since it gives more emphasis to the total weight lifted. The system never discussed how exactly to find the optimal combination of power factor and power index, which is a major shortcoming since improvement in one tends to work against the other. Furthermore, the definition of the power index has no physiological or mechanical basis.

MY CONCLUSIONS

Power factor training is just another system which has touted itself to be the "key" to effective training. Because the developers use mathematical equations, they have fooled some trainers to believe that they are employing real science in evaluating their workouts. However, their definition of the power factor ignores the distance the weight moves, leading to a false rationale for partial-rep training. Furthermore, by only taking into account the weight on the bar and not muscular tension, the system produced a false rationale for the superiority of compound and strongest-range-of-motion exercises. This is not to say that these types of training have no value in a weight training program since there may be other reasons for employing them. The important thing is that the power factor cannot be used as claimed -- as an objective way of determining the muscle stimulating benefits of any workout. Beyond the mechanical oversimplification in their definition of the power factor, is the problematic definition itself. All the literature suggest that instantaneous power during the concentric phase of an exercise is an important training stimulus, not the average power generated over a workout.

**Chen is not saying that compound movements aren't valuable. He is referring to the fact that the authors directly compared the numbers between isolation movements and compounds. For instance, at one they not only compared leg curls to leg extensions, which makes no sense whatsoever, they then compared these to stiff leg deadlifts and then to squats.
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  #8  
Old 08-05-2006, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237
Hell yeah. You see this kind of pseudoscience all the time. Basically people make up their mind what they want things to be like. Then they oversimplify biomechanics to make the data fit. Then they throw in what sounds like science to support it all.
Right.. Might as well start talking about what his diet could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Douche Bag
Well if a pound of fat is about 3500 calories and you want to look good for your up coming class reunion that is in 3 weeks. All you have to do is exercise more and eat less. Look here...
My retard diet will get you moving your way to a slimmer mid-section. So if your base calorie intake is 2500 calories a day and you bike for 30 minutes a day you might burn 300 calories but over a week that is only 2100 cals.... Not very effective is it folks.. haha..
Wow, Now what do I do? I might as well throw in the towel and go kill myself.. haha.

BUT WAIT. Under my new diet plan all you have to do is... eat less and workout more...
So if you cut out 500 calories and bike 30 mins more a day that's 7700 calories less a week your body is using... Starting to get the picture.
NOW.. just think if you were to eat 1000 calories a day and bike for 2 hours ever day... that's 18,900 calories your cutting to get to a very slim body, that almost 5.5 pounds a week. Simply WOW... Now give me money.."
Warning this is a joke, do not attempt this diet at home or you will die.

But seriously.
Guys, before you try anything that involves workout or diet, please do more research. If it sounds too good to be true that is your common sense talking to you.
I'm not making fun of anybody here, just what I see out there, to the extreme.
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