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  #11  
Old 05-17-2009, 06:25 AM
Darkhorse Darkhorse is offline
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Good grief.. High volume routines straight from Arnold's Encyclopedia is the LAST thing 80% of the population needs.

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*different variations for different people as everyone is diff as well as changing your routine every couple of weeks to shock muscles. For more advanced routines and rep ranges to shock the muscle, get at me personally. Good luck!
Listen, the human body adapts to a certain rep range in as little as six workouts. Using a pyramid scheme (15,10,8,6,6,3) is extremely suboptimal for naturals given that it's way too difficult to be progressive vs. keeping it static. "Shocking" your muscles is an old school train of thought. High volume routines work extremely well for pro's for the obvious reasons (supplement cabinets, genetics, super supps). You can throw all the volume you want at the problem, but that's a finite solution. The only infinite solution is obviously LOAD. If I take 10 twins, and put them all on that five day split, 2 of them at best would see some gains. If I take those same 10 twins, put them on a protein intake of twice their bodyweight, and bring their squat up 50 lbs, bench 30, and deadlift 100 lbs using LESS days in the gym, and MORE reliance on strength, guess how many see muscle mass? My point is trying to do 15 sets per bodypart is something that's YEARS down the line as it's primarily for weak points (if any) vs. 0-5 years hands down. I myself am up through 257 lbs currently, natural, and hitting the gym a grand total of 3 days per week. More is almost never better.
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  #12  
Old 05-17-2009, 07:32 AM
iliftt iliftt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhorse View Post
Good grief.. High volume routines straight from Arnold's Encyclopedia is the LAST thing 80% of the population needs.



Listen, the human body adapts to a certain rep range in as little as six workouts. Using a pyramid scheme (15,10,8,6,6,3) is extremely suboptimal for naturals given that it's way too difficult to be progressive vs. keeping it static. "Shocking" your muscles is an old school train of thought. High volume routines work extremely well for pro's for the obvious reasons (supplement cabinets, genetics, super supps). You can throw all the volume you want at the problem, but that's a finite solution. The only infinite solution is obviously LOAD. If I take 10 twins, and put them all on that five day split, 2 of them at best would see some gains. If I take those same 10 twins, put them on a protein intake of twice their bodyweight, and bring their squat up 50 lbs, bench 30, and deadlift 100 lbs using LESS days in the gym, and MORE reliance on strength, guess how many see muscle mass? My point is trying to do 15 sets per bodypart is something that's YEARS down the line as it's primarily for weak points (if any) vs. 0-5 years hands down. I myself am up through 257 lbs currently, natural, and hitting the gym a grand total of 3 days per week. More is almost never better.
Ok so Starting Strength is fine for a while to get strong?

And before this, I did some other routine for like 3 months, that can't like screw with my gains or anything right?

Thanks guys.
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  #13  
Old 05-17-2009, 07:58 AM
Darkhorse Darkhorse is offline
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Just pick something simple and stick with it.
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  #14  
Old 05-17-2009, 07:59 AM
Darkhorse Darkhorse is offline
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A SIMPLE Power Based Routine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a routine a LARGE percentage of the lifters here could make great gains doing.

Monday
Squat or box squat 2-3 x 5
Glute/Ham Raises or pullthroughs 3 x 10
Bent Row or Chest Supported row 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15

Wednesday
Bench Press or low board press 3 x 5, or 3 x 3
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 4 x 8
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Skull Crushers 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10

Friday
Deadlift or rack deadlift 2-3 x 5
Leg press 2 x 10
Chin or lat pull-down 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15

Monday
Incline bench press or Incline Dumbbell Press 3 x 5, or 3 x 3
Dumbbell Bench Press 4 x 8
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Tricep pushdowns 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10 Monday

FOR THOSE THAT ARE READING COMPREHENSION CHALLENGED THE SCHEDULE GOES LIKE THIS:

1st workout
Monday
Squat or box squat 2-3 x 5
Glute/Ham Raises or pullthroughs 3 x 10
Bent Row or Chest Supported row 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15

2nd workout 1 day later
Wednesday
Bench Press or low board press 3 x 5, or 3 x 3
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 4 x 8
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Skull Crushers 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10

3rd workout 1 day later
Friday
Deadlift or rack deadlift 2-3 x 5
Leg press 2 x 10
Chin or lat pull-down 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15

4th workout After TWO DAYS OFF
Monday
Incline bench press or Incline Dumbbell Press 3 x 5, or 3 x 3
Dumbbell Bench Press 4 x 8
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Tricep pushdowns 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10 Monday

next workout sequence repeat 1st through 4th workouts

Sets are NOT taken to failure, at least 1 rep short, or to the point RIGHT before form starts to break down. If you do not recover well, reduce 1 set from each of the lifts.

Rep cadence is explosive on the positive, controlled on the negative, no need to count cadence.

After warm-ups use the same weight for all sets. If you cannot get all the sets with the same weight, the weight is too heavy.

If you want to substitute something like dumbbell skull crushers for pushdowns, or hammer curls for barbell curls go ahead. DO NOT SUB OUT BIG COMPOUND MOVEMENTS FOR ISOLATION LIFTS. IF YOU CAN SQUAT AND DEADLIFT, DO THEM. THEY ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT LIFTS IN THE ROUTINE.

Rotate the lifts to something else every 4-8 weeks or whenever a lift stalls.

DELAOD BY DOING 1/2 THE SETS, OR 85% OF THE WEIGHT EVERY 4-8 WEEKS (4-5 WEEKS WORKS BEST FOR MOST PEOPLE.

Suitable substitute lifts:

Squat or box squat, you can front squat, or smith squat (smith ONLY if that is all you can do) You can leg press ONLY IF YOU ABSOLUTELY CANNOT DO REAGULAR SQUATS AND THE RESULTS WILL NOT BE AS GOOD.
Glute/Ham Raises or pullthroughs
Bent Row or Chest Supported row, you can dumbbell row or machine row
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl, you can do any curl variation
Calf Raises, you can do leg press calfs, standing barbell calf raises, or 1 arm, 1 leg dumbbell calf raises if you don't have a machine

Bench Press or low board press, you can do dumbbell presses or dips
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press, Dumbbell inclines, or smith inclines (use the SMITH ONLY IF THAT IS THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press, NO SUBS
Skull Crushers, you can do dumbbell skull crushers, overhead tricep extensions with a bar or dumbbells, or tricep push-downs if any of these movements bother your elbows.
Ab work, you can do a weighted sit-up, hanging leg raises, ab-wheel, or an ab machine

Deadlift or rack deadlift, you can do romanian deadlifts, or good-mornings
Leg press, you can front squat
Chin or lat pull-down, NO SUBS
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl, any curl variation
Calf Raises, you can do leg press calfs, standing barbell calf raises, or 1 arm, 1 leg dumbbell calf raises if you don't have a machine

Incline bench press or Incline Dumbbell Press, NO SUBS
Dumbbell Bench Press, You can do dips
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press, you can do upright rows
Tricep pushdowns, you can do a skull crusher, or overhead tricep extension with a barbell or dumbbells
Ab work 3 x 10, You can do a weighted sit-up, hanging leg raises, ab-wheel, or an ab machine

If you can't sub any of these lifts figure it out yourself and quit asking endless questions about what you can sub. The sub list just posted was created after over 100 questions have been asked about "can I do lift B instead of lift A.

Iron Addict
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  #15  
Old 05-17-2009, 10:01 AM
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icsilk icsilk is offline
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Yeah, I totally agree with Dark Horse - Less is often more, for sure.
Another suggestion that I used myself way back is to make a list of about 15 or so compound/powr/strength exercises and make sure you get them all in within a 10-12 day period using a 5 x 5 routine, keep a log of your poundage and add 1.25 - 5 lbs or so on the next 10 -12 day period.

for ex.:

take these exercises .. (again just a suggestion - that I know works for strength):

1. Squats
2. Lunges
3. Deadlift
4. Straight leg or Romanian Deadlift
5. Flat B.B./D.B. Press
6. Inc. B.B./D.B. press
7. Military Press
8. D.B. Shoulder press
9. Bent over Rows
10. 1 arm rows
11. Pull-ups/Chin-ups
12. Dips
13. Shrugs
14. Power cleans
15. Straight B.B. curl
16. Close grip bench

If this is your list of exercises then you would make sure you get a 5 x 5 routine in once with each in a 10-12 day period or so, keep a log to avoid redundancy and promote progress and work your ass off and eat, eat, eat.

just another suggestion to mull over. After I lost some strength bcuz of some fighting, and football injuries last year I worked like this for a 3 month period and blew away old personal bests afterwards.

Just a note: because I was only working every 3rd day or so I was starting every workout with Squats, heavy squats. I used the routine Randall J. Strossen talks about in his book Super Squats - where you take the weight that you normally do x10 with and do x20 instead - its difficult, it burns, it hurts but it works. After my injuries I started doing this x20 routine (after a number of warm up sets) with only 250. That was Nov. last year after my flag football season. I now do it with 405, do 555 for reps. and 625 from the down position. Massive strength gains really fast this way - but I NEVER missed a workout when I planned it and ALWAYS worked hard. Sometimes I actually collapsed and couldn't effin move for 5 minutes after a set, but Im enjoying the rewards now.

Try it, you may like it

Best of luck

A few books you may like to look at:

"Dinosaur Training, Lost secrets of strength and development"
-Brooks Kubik

"Super Squats"
-Randall J. Strossen

And a website:

www.ironmind.com
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  #16  
Old 05-17-2009, 10:05 AM
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icsilk icsilk is offline
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I forgot to mention that after each of these work days put in some time for the auxiliary work that is SO important to total functional strength - core work, hands, wrists, forearms and calves.

for your hands and grip, exercises like: pinch grip holds, 1 and 2 finger deadlifts, farmers walk, lever curls and get a good pair of grippers.

All the best
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  #17  
Old 05-17-2009, 05:39 PM
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Ross86 Ross86 is offline
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I've never ever found it necessary to do stuff for hands, wrists, forearms, or calves.
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  #18  
Old 05-18-2009, 12:47 PM
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icsilk icsilk is offline
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Quote:
I've never ever found it necessary to do stuff for hands, wrists, forearms, or calves.
All that means is that you have never found total functional strength necessary - no biggie. Being an ex-counterterrorist and present practitioner of MMA, i find the benefits of an unbreakable grip not only necessary but desireable enough to dedicate extra time to them - not needing straps to deadlift 500+ lbs for reps is a very empowering feeling!! Maybe its not for everyone, but again I was just giving him suggestions on total strength training.

You're either a dinosaur or a bunny rabbit, and I can crush a bunny rabbit in my vice like grip
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