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The harder you train the less often you can train. Muscle soreness is a good indicator you have torn some deep good muscle fibers. As we know tearing fibers ( I am sure you gurus will argue the finer points of physiology) and the rebuilding of fibers somewhat like the bodybuilding scar tissue is the basics behind buiding muscle mass. The body is forced to grow or die in a nut shell.
I have read where trainees say that they experiance no soreness a few days later. I have a gut feeling they didnt go all out. In this case the bodies need to develop or adapt hasnt happened. I also have a feeling these guys are probably not getting a hole lot larger.
I know that is my goal is to build mass. I believe that for most folks you got to have the clay before you can mold it. I know lots of you guys like to read training articles so read some articles by a guy that I always felt had some worthy ideas Mike Mentzer. He was a pretty sharp character in his day. I think his ideas had and still have allot of merit. I think with the rampid use of Steroids by new bodybuilders, his ideas have fallen to the waist side. Steriod users recover super fast and their goal is to pump as much steroid saturated blood into their muscles as possible. Hence the high volume high rep nonscense they blab about.

Looks like I hit the nail on the head.

LOL, the only way to workout is super high volume with steroids or HIT.

Mike Metzner was lost in the sauce. Some of his earlier stuff was ok. The idea that doing one set beyond failure once every twelve days is beyond stupid. Not to mention that training to failure and stopping just short of failure has the same exact same effects on hypertrophy..The only difference being failure drains the CNS leading to infrequent "hit" training wheras stopping just short allows for greater frequency-> a natural lifters best weapon. I also have to mention that soreness is the absolute WORST way to measure "a good workout" and especially growth.

As for volume, it works wonders for 5-10% of the bodybuilders out there. However, the majority can find themselves somewhere in the middle. Only hardgainers, extreme hardgainers, should be doing the super low volume infrequent training sessions, since their recovery sucks.

Speaking of volume, IronAddict, who has 20+ years training up to 70 clients per month, speaks very highly of volume training. However, he has ways to incorperate volume such as "waved" volume...Essentially starting off lower volume, then every week adding another set.

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So I'm not on steroids? I didn't think I was.

1. This is only one theory or one possible mechanism behind the hypertrophic response. 2. Going to momentary failure is a function of the CNS or at least the PNS not the muscle. It is not a prerequisite for the tears nor is it an indicator. An absolute beginner while trying to lift with absolute "intensity" may reach failure quite early due to the CNS no being conditioned...in other words he would not be able to generate the maximum "intensity" you cling to like a shield. 3. What's this about scar tissue? Scar tissue is a bad thing. Do you know what hypertrophy is at all?

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Since I am having so much fun with all these little "essays" I reopened this thread to talk about the whole "overtraining" thing. Quite frankly, I'm sick of the term because it is so overused and is becoming an excuse for everything from inadequate intensity, volume, frequency...everything.

In order to actually reach a state of chronic overtraining you'd have to ignore various and obvious signs from your body for a LOOONG time. In other words you'd start to overreach, keep overreaching, and continue overreaching while the symptoms of that keep mounting up, intensifying and invading every area of your life. If you do that you're an idiot and you have a problem. It's probably not gonna happen to many.

So in case any of us newbs are influenced by the beginning of this post let me just reiterate what has been said before on this forum to great effect:

Go in the gym and lift some heavy ass weights as often as possible and as Sleeper is fond of saying, let the chips fall where they may.

Soreness is not always an indicator of a good workout.

Absolutely not. And I think that a lot of people when they say they don't get sore a good bit of the time there still a LITTLE sore but they don't really notice it because they're used to it and in any case they don't cry about it and use it as an excuse for ridiculously low frequency saying "You can't workout a sore muscle"....which you CAN.