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Pullovers: For Back? For Chest? For Both?



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  #11  
Old 05-14-2010, 02:50 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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Now you're getting insulting?

Actually the OP did not ask that question. He did not ask which one to put it in, he asked is there a difference between the exercise when people do it for chest versus back.

Since I was responding to YOU in my last post what I said was material to that. I am sorry that your attempt at physiology did not work out and now your feel "intellectually bullied". You are the one that brought up physiology, not me. "Stage 5 Tanner Growth?"

My first post answered what the OP asked without physiology and you brought in physiology and answered a question that was not asked, and suddenly I am being immaterial. You wanted to get me to agree to your underlying assumptions and I don't. I don't disagree to be argumentative. I actually think that where to put pullovers is immaterial to this thread since the question was "why" whether than "what". I'll try not to call names but it seems like you just don't like to be disagreed with or corrected.

Edit: Sorry for calling you "the OP" Brad!
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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Last edited by EricT; 05-14-2010 at 03:33 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2010, 03:01 PM
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Eric did a fantastic job of answering the OP's question in his first post. I agree with his answer 100%. I don't think the return on this exercise is worth the effort when you consider alternative exercises.

EKnight, you're new to the forum. Most of the people here are interested in learning, so we often have discussions in threads. That was what Eric did after he answered the OP. He didn't bully you or the OP. He did an excellent job of explaining and supporting his answer, and he did so respectfully. So get over it.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2010, 06:07 PM
EKnight EKnight is offline
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First off, reread the title of the thread- it's not a "why" question, but clearly asks if they are for chest, back, or both. I took the same anatomy everybody else took (unless the human body has recently changed) and I disagree with Eric's assessment of the role that the pecs play in pullovers. Just because he said it, and he has three thousand posts, doesn't mean his word is that of God Almighty. The condescending way he responded was not helping anyone learn anything, which can be inferred by the way he buffered it with his "didn't want to be a smart akeck" edit. I might be new to this forum, but I'm not new to training people or addressing these kinds of questions. The average person has no interest in the importance of the glenohumeral joint. They want to know- as did the OP- if pullovers are back, chest, or both. If the OP was unable to figure that out on his own, and he came here to ask about it, how useful is an answer that he probably won't understand? Learn to read your audience. The reason I oversimplified my response was to purposefully NOT confuse him with the entire anatomy of the shoulder joint. How helpful is it to a newcomer when they ask a question to say, "I don't believe there are chest exercises." How confusing is that? How dos that help anybody learn anything. Or is it because Eric said it, it must be true? Funny, the ACSM would disagree.
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  #14  
Old 05-14-2010, 06:51 PM
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brad is not a newcomer

you can't truly isolate anything...that's why there are no "chest" exercises"...and that is helpful to know and learn...the earlier the better.

and pullovers are dumb.
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  #15  
Old 05-14-2010, 10:59 PM
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EKnight: you need to understand the following issues:

1.) Brad is not a new guy on bb.net

2.) He was asking a question. Do you know how I am aware of this? That Question Mark "?" indicates that it was a question.

3.) Eric has helped more people than you have. The fact that you think the pullover can be restricted to JUST a chest OR a back movement is exhibit #1 in our evidence box to prove you know nothing.

4.) I do pullovers for triceps. Dig that.

5.) Eric is the LAST guy to be a smart ass. He is however incredibly intelligent so be prepared to have your mind BLOWN!

Lastly: Eric knows everything. You know nothing.

Why am I being Eric's hype man? Simple: Eric is able to hold a discussion and deliver. If you had not interrupted the line of thoughts with your retarded comment we could have had a good discussion on using the pullover to improve the rib cage or the chest or the back or the triceps.
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  #16  
Old 05-14-2010, 11:15 PM
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This is so silly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EKnight View Post
First off, reread the title of the thread- it's not a "why" question, but clearly asks if they are for chest, back, or both.
Why is THE question of all questions. To be able to answer that question anyone would need to know why the exercise affects the muscle group like it does.

Quote:
I took the same anatomy everybody else took (unless the human body has recently changed) and I disagree with Eric's assessment of the role that the pecs play in pullovers. Just because he said it, and he has three thousand posts, doesn't mean his word is that of God Almighty.
First off, I am God.

Secondly: Eric's assessment was based on practical experience. Your opinion was based off an anatomy class.

Quote:
The condescending way he responded was not helping anyone learn anything, which can be inferred by the way he buffered it with his "didn't want to be a smart akeck" edit.
How the heck is Eric condescending? He was listing his thoughts lol...

Quote:
I might be new to this forum, but I'm not new to training people or addressing these kinds of questions.
your conduct doesn't prove this.

Quote:
The average person has no interest in the importance of the glenohumeral joint. They want to know- as did the OP- if pullovers are back, chest, or both.
Well, you should be aware that antagonistic muscles work together in every movement. For example: you cannot say that squats are strictly a hamstring exercise. They work the whole leg. Same with Deadlifts. And similarly, pullovers hit all the muscles involved in the movement: shoulders, rib cage, traps, triceps, etc. There is no way to isolate this to JUST one muscle group.

Quote:
If the OP was unable to figure that out on his own, and he came here to ask about it, how useful is an answer that he probably won't understand? Learn to read your audience. The reason I oversimplified my response was to purposefully NOT confuse him with the entire anatomy of the shoulder joint.
But your answer was wrong. Oversimplifying the answer didn't change its correctness lol..

Quote:
How helpful is it to a newcomer when they ask a question to say, "I don't believe there are chest exercises." How confusing is that? How dos that help anybody learn anything. Or is it because Eric said it, it must be true? Funny, the ACSM would disagree.
I would trust Eric over ACSM any day. Eric's made a lot of people sturdy strong. End of story.
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  #17  
Old 05-15-2010, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EKnight View Post
The average person has no interest in the importance of the glenohumeral joint. They want to know- as did the OP- if pullovers are back, chest, or both. If the OP was unable to figure that out on his own, and he came here to ask about it, how useful is an answer that he probably won't understand? Learn to read your audience. The reason I oversimplified my response was to purposefully NOT confuse him with the entire anatomy of the shoulder joint.
Please read over the whole thread again. I don't think Eric was specifically addressing the OP after his first post. You were the person that started throwing in terminology that a beginner wouldn't likely understand (in your first post!). And you were addressing that to the OP, I think.

In any case, it really doesn't matter. If you're going to be an ass and you're going to be argumentative for the sake of it, then please go to some other forum where they welcome that type of behavior. There's no reason for you to reply to anything said in this thread, so just let it go.
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  #18  
Old 05-15-2010, 07:42 AM
EricT EricT is offline
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Ross, is right. I was done answering Brad after the first post since I answered his question in the way that first came to mind. After that I was addressing you. The reason I addressed you is that you, as Anuj said, oversimplified things with your response.

The excuse about the "average person" not wanting to know about or care about the importance of the glenohumeral joint (there are three other important joints to consider as well) is condescending in itself. You seem to be projecting your own practices on to me. And your assumptions about what Brad would or would not understand IS condescending to him as I guarantee he understood everything I said. He may not agree with it but he understood it.

The reason I made the smart alleck remark was simply because I was afraid that a pat answer like "there is no chest exercise" might sound like that if I didn't come back and qualify if a little bit. And I did. I said that there are muscles that work the chest but I don't think there are chest exercises.

Being reasonable one can take that to be a difference in how we classify exercises. But I made that answer as short and sweet as possible without going into the classification thing in detail because I did not want to be verbose, which you have forced me to be now!

Just stick it on back day is actually not the kind of answer people expect to hear when coming to this forum. The shoulder is a big problem for weightlifters. You've got some serious individuals coming on here and they are aware of that. This isn't one of those 'men's issues' forums for weekend warriors to help weekend warriors. People know how important and fragile the shoulder complex is and if the ACSM doesn't agree with that you can have them. Especially if they teach trainers to isolate the chest and other such nonsense.

But again, and I don't know why we have to keep repeating it, you brought up the kinesiology. Not me. I have learned that 'experts' do not like to be caught with their pants down though so you are not the first person to think I'm an asshole. You brought up chest expansion and used fancy terminology. You brought up horizontal adduction. And now suddenly It's me who is the know it all bully.

I forgot, btw, how sometimes people do pullovers with bent arm versus straight arm thinking it changes the targeted muscles, like Anuj brought up. The straight arm being for "back" and the bent arm being for chest. I think. Maybe it's the other way around?

Last edited by EricT; 05-15-2010 at 08:12 AM.
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  #19  
Old 06-05-2010, 07:19 PM
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Yes, dumbbell pullovers will work you lats as well as your chest. And so will barbell pullovers. It's the same thing. Just like doing a barbell bench press and a dumbbell bench press both work your chest shoulders and triceps.
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  #20  
Old 07-25-2010, 07:40 AM
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only time i do them is after a grueling 20rep squat set.once i rack the wght i immediately grab a medium wght d.b(60-70lbs)and do 20 slow,deep breath pullovers concentrating on the stretch.by my 10th-11th rep my tri's are toasted so i try not to lock out.i sink my ass to the floor,breathe real deep and let the wght stretch my ribcage as much as possible.combining those with 20 deep breathing squat sets will make your chest wider than anything you've tried yet.
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