if you can do pullups...even assisted ones...i would hit those over pulldowns.

No thats what im saying, im still gonna do pull ups but should i work pulldowns somewhere into my workout as well if im moving back stuff around

Sorry to get back to this so late.

First off..that Wednesday, workout is just terrible. All that pressing on one day plus that is following heavyish overhead pressing on day one.

I'm not sure if I get what being middle of the road means.

Being a powerlifter means you train to compete for the big three deads, squats, and bench. That's all. Otherwise being "strong" is whatever your particular idea is but it is going to necessitate certain universal things as training progresses whether a powerlifter or not.

Look, this powerlifting thing has just created so much darn confusion. As soon as I saw your goals I realized just another manifestation of this. These days, the message tends to be you're either "not serious, or "middle-road" or you're a "powerlifter". Maybe this is because of some of the egotistical, meglo-maniacal, holier-than-thou, every-body-must-do-as-I-do-because-I'm-insecure messages we get from many powerlifting sources.

You wanna be strong you gotta strength train. You can't keep training the same way forever. You gotta mix it up. You gotta try new things. There is no magic way to train that separates us from them or any of that.

You're workouts don't seem to fit your goals. Because someone wanting to be "strong" but not a powerlifter wouldn't have a whole day devoted to just frontal pressing (I'm including dips in that).

If one's goal is to be "strong" then, a whole, whole, lot of their training should be posterior-chain oriented.

I notice out of eight total compound movements fully half of them have you sitting down or lying down! That's what a bodybuilder does, ime.

I'm not trying to be preachy or harsh, but, to me, it would be a whole lot easier to come up with routines if you were more sure and clear-cut in your goals. I get the feeling that when I asked your response was the first thing you came up with rater than something you've really given a lot of thought too.

From what I'm getting, though, and in line with some of Pity's suggestions and your desires, an upper-lower ran three days a week may be good. That way you get the variety and stimulus you need with the lower frequency your are going for. Upper days don't have to be "strictly" upper body. I just think of it in terms of relative stress.

Thanks as always for your post! Jeeeze a little harsh hahaha jk

Well its not that my goals are not to be a power lifter its that I know two mindsets. Those that want to be huge (body builders) and those that want to purely strength train... when I saw middle of the road I mean I want to be strong and decently muscular. My ideals may be wrong and i may not be going about them the right way but thats why I post here to get advice. Right now the my goals coming back into the lifting game after years of poor effort and lack of motivation is to build a strong base... hence why I am doing legs (which i havent done in 3 years even when I did lift for a month or two) and why I added in deadlifts.... because I'd be crazy not to add in squats and deads according to every source including this board and others.

Right now I'd like to develop my core since i've always neglected it.

Are you trying to say I should be working the same muscle groups more than once a week?

I know muscle and progress is made in the gym and most likely I will probably make my own best gains by judging what works for me... but I still come to the board for advice... because there are a ton of people who have been there done that and know how they wasted time in past with stuff that doesnt work... like when I was in high school and trained chest 3-5 times a week... no wonder I ended up with a rotator cuff injury.

Long story short I could make all the workouts in the world for myself but i appreciate the constructive criticism

Well that is what I wanted to know :). My goal is not to be harsh it is to help you define your goals so that you can be happy with your training. I mean, hey, I could make every workout in the world for myself...and I'd make myself misearable doing it. There is NOTHING wrong with your stated goals. Completely reasonable and doable. It almost sounds like you think I would disagree with those goals and I don't know why! I may have different ideas on how to achieve them than others others. Please realize that I have used the term "middleground" or "middle of the road" MANY times myself to describe a MISTAKE in programming (for the long term) so I was trying to clear up what you meant.

In other words strength AND size, they can go hand in hand of course. And if you say your goal is middle of the road than I am all for that. But middle of the road TRAINING will never quite work the way you want it to. So what I'm trying to dispell is the MYTH that people wanting size AND strength will always be albe to do 5x5 volume oriented routines to get them there no matter how long they've been training. Basically it becomes so ridicoulsy ineffeficient at some point that you have a hard time realizing EITHER goal.

If you want strength you should think about training movments not muscle groups or body parts. Size can be achieved through that but it seems to me that people think that if you are not just a pure strength guy but also want to be as big as possilble that you need to somehow combine the strength philosophy with the bodybuilding philosophy. That's no problem except that people try to mix them in the same program. It's oil and water. If you do it in phases that would be different assuming you did something to maintain strength...imo.

To tell the truth, the idea of how many times you are working each muscle group a week never really enters my mind anymore. That all tends to work out in the wash with a well designed program.

You should check out the journals.

Thanks again Eric, im actually thinking about finishing up my 2nd week of my own take on deload and then going to 5x5... which would be a nice routine cycle from 3x5

Ill start a log, ill probably have 5x5 questions. Sould 5X5 be at 90% and the same weight for every set?

Yeah, def. This is a journal forum :D

Eric one more question!

Im going to start the 5x5 this weeks. How would you suggest adding in military press, pull-ups, and shrugs? I'd like to do pull ups every week but i could stand to only do military and shrugs every other like alternate each week

Thanks!

^^^ Which 5X5 routine?

You shouldn't need to do shrugs IME unless you already have some kind of problem or imbalance.

Oh yeah sorry! I suppose that would help! hahha

The intermediate

I just like shrugs, they make my shoulders pop like crazy :) Hahahaha