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Have sort of an update.. having two workouts prior to my last post the knee pain completely went away. Now using the "push through the heels" and "avoid your knees moving inward" tips, a new problem in my form keeps happening and I would really appreciate any help. The problem is I go into the hole, and right when im coming out of it my butt sticks out really far and my chest pushes forward [is this normal at all?]. I'm currently 6"3, 170. The weight in which I squat is 135, I lowered it to 115 and it still happened. Should I go lower? OH and the last thing is, when is a good time to increase the weight? Thanks for all the help again, especially you Eric. You put a lot of thought into your posts and it's helping me out tremendously. I really appreciate it.

First of all you're very welcome and I appreciate the update. It gets to you when you put a lot of thought into helping someone and they can't be bothered to fill you in or give you any info...which can help the helper. It becomes a question and answer session instead of a conversation. So I sincerely appreciate the update.

Well it sounds like you're going into the squat one way and coming out another. What your describing is the your "arch". Different people need more or less of an arch in their squat and different people are more or less upright when they squat. But you should try to set your arch on the way down and this should be maintained for the most part as you come up. You say you butt is sticking out way far but that's kind of subjective. It sounds like your body is getting into the position it needs is all.

It's hard to say but it sounds like your just getting your position down. It's as much a body learing process as a concious one.

But if your arch is being exagerated you could look at flexibility in your hams, psoas (the hip flexors at the front), and lower back. Also, do you notice a certain week point? Is it right out of the hole or a little bit after the hole?

On when to load the bar you're doing Rippletoe so your supposed to be loading the bar every workout. If your suatting style has really changed drastically you may need to cycle back the weight a little more than you usually would and build back up in order to continue progression. At this point it would probably be a good idea to post the routine and where your are/what you've done, etc.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Ok my routine is basically consisting of A and B days. Each comes after the next so a week for me looks like;

M (rest)
T (A)
W (REST)
TH (B)
F (REST)
SAT (A)
SUN (REST)
MON(REST)

then tuesday becomes B, and the cycle continues. An A workout for me is 3x5 squats (115 - 135 lb), 3x5 bench press (95 [my bench presses are horrible im so weak in this area]), 1x5 deadlift (around 165)

B is same 3x5 squats, 3x5 standing military press (50lb, plan to inc that to 60 tomorrow) and 3x5 pendlay rows @ 95 (im pretty weak here too)

Sometimes ill throw in very light accessory work (mistake?) when I feel like I didnt work hard enough. this includes wrist barbell curls, regular dumbell curls, pushups, and crunches. That's usually all I do and I dont feel any crazy burns or anything that'll put me out for a few days, maybe it is I'm not sure.. :(

oh and so the spine doesnt stay vertical during a squat? oh and does A2G literally mean your butt is about 2 inches from the floor? How deep should I be going? The deeper I go the harder it is to get back up and onetime I almost failed my last rep, this basically normal? can you ever go too deep? thanks again =]]]

Go ahead and read this: http://www.bodybuilding.net/training...-faq-4685.html

I'll get back to some of these specific questions a little later unless someone beats me to it.

Ok, what I'm wondering is if you understand the progression here. You gave me a range of squat weight, 115 to 135. Now this program is sets accross. The SAME weight for every set. NO you should not use ramped sets for this. Now at this point I'm guessing you've been at this for around 3 weeks? Yet it seems as if there has been a question in your mind about when to add wieght and all that. Basically you should have started with a weight that was light enough to pretty much guarantee progression for the first 3 to 4 weeks. At the beginning it really shouldn't be that hard. The intensity is "cycled" meaning you build up from a load that is somewhat lower than your maximum ability over a period of several weaks. This is what allows you to progress beyond that ability for a much longer period of time.

When you say you are "weak" on things does that mean you feel the weight your are at is weak compared to other people or that you don't feel strong at this weight? Also, 10 lbs for certain things like MP's and bench press can be too much.

It is ok to do some assistance work but NOT because you don't feel you did enough. It's all about progression. If you are consistently loaing the bar workout after workout then you are doing enough, trust me. I would leave out the arm work for now until you are sure on the other stuff. Ab work should be in there. Pushups are probably a waste of time.

Once you are feeling stronger and getting better at generating intensity then some tricep work may be okay. And I would recomment trying some pullups instead of bicep curls.

A2G really means to go as low as you can. For most that means the back of their hams are in contact with their calves. How vertical you spine is has to do with you center of gravity. Which is of course affected by how low you squat and you bar postitioning and your body, lol. It would be literally impossible for most to sit back into a squat with a heavy barbell on the back while maintaining a vertical posture! You'd fall backward. At the same time it is not a severe forward lean because that would mean more shear stress on you spine, much more work for you core musculature and spinal erectors meaning much less weight and potential for injury.

I'm thinking since you are basically learning your squat that you may be in a range that will curtail your progression prematurely. And I'm wondering about the other stuff too.

im subscribed to this thread waiting for eric's response before saying anything

Well anuj why don't you go ahead and give him your squat vid?

And maybe I'll point him to a few more.

DarkVision, some vids may help you get an idea of basically how it should look but I think it is important for you to understand that everyone is different and you do not have to try to exactly mimic someone else. As long as you keep all the basic form points in mind and have a general idea of what a good squat is about while finding your bread and butter way of doing it, you should be fine.

no its ok.....i think the OP has this covered...if u need the vid pm me DV

Ok well, got back from the gym today. I'm a tad shocked especially after reviewing the Rippetoe's guide again (posted here), because I literally have to use the same weight for everything? I'm perfectly ok with dropping my squat to 95 (which is the most I can bench / pendlay row) but no way in hell can I standing press 95, does that mean I have to drop everything to 60[amount I can press]? OR is it that the only three weights that need to be the same are deadlifts, squats, and bench presses? (can they be like 20 lbs off or what, my deadlift is 185 while my bench is 95 .. big diff so I need to basically drop the deadlifts 90 pounds?) If I have to drop the deadlifts 90 pounds or whatever to make the weights all the same that concerns me because wont that be like lifting air and not do anything to build me up? What's the gain out of this? Does it give a chance for my other muscle groups to recoop better while I build them up to 185 or whatever the end goal is?

Hmmmm and today the knee pain returned, it doesn't seem too serious because it almost disappears (can't feel it unless I execute the same ROM again) within about 10 min after the exercise, in fact when I got home from the gym I went for a light 30 minute jog and didn't feel any knee pain. I just did a free squat and it hurts same knee (right one) same spot, but only slightly when im coming out of the hole. I mean it's barely there. I don't know if I mentioned this before and sorry if it seems im going in a loop but it's right above the kneecap, it's very easy for me to just suck it up and keep squatting but again I'd really like your opinion once more about whether or not im putting myself at a big risk for injury and I'll require knee surgery or something in the future. Heh I'm only 17 my knees shouldn't be giving out already haha so im not too concerned about it, just hope it'll stop, if it was both my knees I know I'd have a problem. I think =/.

Ok and lastly;

"When you say you are "weak" on things does that mean you feel the weight your are at is weak compared to other people or that you don't feel strong at this weight? Also, 10 lbs for certain things like MP's and bench press can be too much."

Let me describe this a little more. It's basically what you said how I don't feel strong at this weight, I'll grab the bar and it seems just plain tough, I couldn't complete more than one set today. Is that because the bar was a different weight? At our gyms we have dark grey ones and light silver ones, I don't remember the time I successfully completed 3x5 of 95lbs if the bar was a silver one or what. Maybe it's all in my head lol. Is the weight on these bars different? I remember reading somewhere (probably that Rippetoe FAQ) that the bars in the gym are all Olympic sized 45 lbs? I've been calculating this the whole time this way. All the bars are the same size, just different color.

I know I've said a lot and I'm asking so much, I almost regret taking up so much of your guys' time on the responses but believe me I have read my fair share of material around here I was actually hesitant even creating this thread, I'm thrilled I didn't get a "use the search button" response, because believe me I have.

Of course you don't do the same weight for everything! What in the world gave you that idea? No, within each exercise you use the same weight for each set of 5 but that's all.

Your whole first paragraph is irrelavant so I won't try to answer all that, lol. You use whatever weight on each exercise that is a nice moderately light and comfortable weight to start and you load the bar on each exercise for each workout and use the same weight for each set of 5. Take you time and read all that again and I think it should all come clear to you. Ignore the "How much weight should I use" part as I feel it's very misleading and not exactly accurate. Oh and look at RabidRabbit's journal....he is running it like a champ.

Everyone should know that it is best to start out light on this. Even if it feels like nothing. Trust me once you start building on that nothing it will turn into a big old something real fast. The reason is is just simpler to say start very light is because there is a big difference between and absolute novice who has never touched a weight and others at various stages of training experience who are trying to get it together by do Rippletoe.

An absolue beginner might spend his first workout feeling out the weight and be able to put a sizable chunk on the bar. Something that feels challenging, in fact. But for an absolute novice heavy and challenging are very relative to his ability to generate intensity. And he can't generate the intensity he will be able to later which means that he can actually progress faster and easier than someone with more lifting under their belt. Heavy for him has a different meaning than for someone else and to that latter person, going to heavy too early could represent program suicide.

Thus the simple one size fits all prescription, imo, is go light young man. There is not real disadvantage the this other than the time spend building up the weights which, end the end is and advantage. Likewise, there is no advantage in this kind of training to "challenging" yourself, or doing more. It is all about progression and progressing as long as possible in this simple linear workout to workout basis. Starting light and building on it will guarantee a longer progression which will in the end equal much greater gains. I hope that makes sense. Once you've got one of these under your belt then you need to be more stategic in how much you cycle the intensity but not now.

I know EXACTLY the kind of knee pain you are talking about. I've experienced it on occasion myself. No I don't think it's a big deal but it does sound like you need to back off with the weight a good deal. Give your knees a chance to catch up. You may need to rest it up for a week and start again much lighter. I don't know exactly what causes that but for me I've gotten that before when I'm progressing fairly quickly on something like a 5x5 and this is quite similar enough. I suspect it is simply that the intensity is going upwards quicker than the tendon or ligament that is affected can strengthen.

The bars in your gym could be slightly different weights and of course that could matter. You need to use the same bar everytime if you possibly can or find out the weight of them and figure that in.