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Squat + knee = abnormal pain?



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  #21  
Old 02-28-2007, 05:02 PM
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Darkvision Darkvision is offline
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Allright well I lightened the weights and im able to complete all my reps / sets. Problem is can it be too light where im just warming up almost and not ripping / expanding the muscle to grow it?? Currently squatting 95. Is it OK if I'm able to do more reps after the initial 5 x 3 ? I feel kind of guilty if im not tired out enough to where I can barely complete the last squat =/ =\ benching lowered to 85, you're confident that with persistence I will grow?
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  #22  
Old 03-01-2007, 05:38 AM
EricT EricT is offline
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One, you must give up the idea of each workout being some huge magic mushroom that's going to make you big. It's all about progression. This routine is primarily about strength then mass. The strength will pay off bigtime. How much mass you get depends on the individual but if you eat enough it should be very good.

So yes it's ok if you're able to do more. The idea of beating your muscles to shit thinking that's the only way they will grow is shortsigted. There will come that time again when the reps come hard on this and and when you plateau. There will also come a time when you are not really able to progress this way anymore at all. Starting light and building on it ensures that that time will be longer in coming. More progression equals more gains. It's a simple as that. You're squatting three times a week, after all. So yeah, I'm confident
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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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  #23  
Old 03-02-2007, 11:43 AM
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Darkvision Darkvision is offline
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Eric can you please give me an example of how I should be progressing? I'm still a tad confused at when exactly a good time to increase the weight is (every three weeks? every workout?), and by what increment, is there a rule of thumb for this such as never increase it more than 5 lbs or anything similar to that? I fully understand that my 3 x 5's all must be the same weight. I'm just confused about when I should be adding weight and how to determine when the time is right to slap some more pounds on the bar, I used to go by the rule " if it's light make it heavy " but now I'm only lifting a light weight like you said, so how do I know when to progress?
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  #24  
Old 03-02-2007, 12:26 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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You should be adding weight EVERY workout provided you get all the sets and reps, which of course you should definitely have no problem doing. What weight you choose is really up to you. You could do 10 pounds on squats and deads and 5 pounds on bench and OHP's. IMO, just use a clean 5 pounds on everything and go from there.

I've seen all sorts of little formulas on how to determine the weight such as using your 5RM and subtracting some amount and then subtracting 10 pounds less each time for the first several weeks and then adding 10 pounds. Or using 2.5% increase every workout. Such complicated matematical computations are not going to guarantee the same result for everyone and they are completely unecessary for the most part. I think it stems primarily from "internet gurus" trying to look smart. Once you do the program you'll have a really good idea of the weight to start you next program with.

Here is a basc writeup that has been floating around (some of which was incorrect) with some changes made be me according to the way I'd like to see it ran for most people. (but i didn't write most of this).

You don't have to do it my way as far as alternating rows and chins but this is the basic idea. As I said look at RabidRabbit's Rippetoe journal and Phil's journal.
------------------------------------------------------------

Rippetoe 3x5 Beginners Program, aka Starting Strength

You alternate Workout A and Workout B every other day, 3 times a week. So you could either do Mon, Wed, Fri or Tues, Thurs. and Sat. Depending on what works best for you.

Example:

Week 1:

Monday - Workout A
Wednesday -Workout B
Friday - Workout A

Week 2:

Monday - Workout B
Wednesday - Workout A
Friday - Workout B

Note: This doesn’t include warm-up sets

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press or 3x5 Military Press**
3x5 Rows* or Chinups (3 to failure with BW)

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press or Military Press
1x5 Deadlift***

No beach work right now. Chins will take care of biceps and all the pressing will take care of the triceps. Other assistance can be added later as you become more advanced and recovery begins to improve.

*Rows= Barbell Rows (done off the floor every rep). Alternate chinups with rows so if you do rows one workout do chins the next. Keep any assistat work off right now. Chinups shoud be done with bodyweight until you can get around 10 reps for 3 sets. Then add weight. This will get your arms growing and make you feel good.

Powercleans were traditionally used and would replace rows if you want to do them but there is a huge learning curve involved with them as well as reasons to do and not to do them.

**Same here as with rows and chinups. If you do Bench Press one workout do Military Press the next.

***Stick with this at first but you should be able to increase the sets on the deadlifts later or put in some deadlift assistance.

Abdominal work is a must IMO. 5o to 100 crunches won’t do the job. You need to utilize resistance when you are ready. High reps 10 to 12 for abs. Weighted sit-ups and/or hanging leg raises for 2 or 3 sets. You should be able to do them twice a week but if it’s too much cut down.

Most people cant get it through there head that compound lifts also work your arms Plenty and always Insist on direct arm work. As quoted by Madcow2, “Don't **** with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything.”

As for the weight, make sure that you use the SAME weight throughout the sets. For example if I do the first set if Squats with 200lbs then I do the other 2 sets of squats with 200lbs.

As a beginner you should be able to add weight to the bar every workout. At first probably 5 pounds and later on it may have to go down to 2.5 or 3. Start LIGHT.

You ONLY increase the load on the next workout when the planned sets and reps have been accomplished at any given weight. If you don't get ALL the reps and sets, hold the weight over to the next workout.

This does NOT need to be viewed as a cookie cutter. This is a starting point in a way of programming that can take you quite a long ways with small changes being made. You do not need to do this for a couple of weeks and then “pick” another program. The best way to progress quickly and efficiently is to MILK this shit for everything it’s worth. Rippletoe says this can take you anywhere from 3 to 9 months if done right depending on the individual.

Warm-up Sets:

Before all your working sets it is best to do a few warm-up sets. Specifically for your first lift. You don’t have to do the whole thing for the other lifts but definitely the first.

What you do is you ramp your weight up to your working sets.

For example:

2x5xbar (sets x reps x weight)
1x5x85
1x3x125
1x2x155

And the working set weight would be 175.

If you are lifting your working sets under 150 I would cut out the 3rd warmup set of 1x5 because it wont be needed.

The Lifts:

**Used references and quotes from Madcow2 and Bodybuilding.com**

Barbell Squat: These should be full range Olympic style squats. Use the full range of your body - that means as low as you can go which for almost everyone is past parallel. If the top of your thighs aren't at least parallel it's for sh!t. If you think this is bad for your knees going low, you and whoever told you that are relying on an old wives tale. Anyone who knows the human body will tell you that below parallel is MUCH safer on the knees whereas parallel and above put all the sheer right on them and doesn’t allow proper transfer of the load to the rest of your body (this is how your body was designed).

Rest a barbell on the upper portion of your back, not your neck. Firmly grip the bar with your hands almost twice your shoulder width apart. Position your feet about shoulder width apart and your toes should be pointing just a little outward with your knees in the same direction. Keep your back as straight as possible and your chin up, bend your kneesand slowly lower your hips straight down until your THIGHS ARE AT LEAST PARALLEL TO THE FLOOR. Once you reach the bottom position, press the weight up back to the starting position.
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  #25  
Old 03-02-2007, 08:58 PM
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Darkvision Darkvision is offline
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Ok awesome that answered a lot of questions, man I didn't know I had to be adding weight every workout, now I do hehe. Ok so I'm going to start off with 5 pounds, is a warm-up really necessary? Can I just do a 2x5 with the bar and that'll be sufficient [for mainly squats and bench presses] ? Abs seem pretty important, crunches wont cut it then? At my gym there is this machine where you sit in it and add resistance then crunch downwards, is that enough? What's good for the lower abs in your opinion, especially for a beginner like me =D? Thanks again Eric, oh and lastly where exactly can I find that guys journal you told me to take a look at, you don't have to fetch me a direct link just tell me how to access one's journal - im rather new to these boards =D.
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  #26  
Old 03-03-2007, 10:17 AM
EricT EricT is offline
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Yes a warmup is necessary. At this point it may not be necessary in order to get the weight up but it will make it go smoother and most importantly help prevent injury.

On the crunch machine thing It's ok but I wouldn't rely on it exclusively. Crunches are mostly a bullshit made up thing designed to islolate the abs by taking the hip flexors out of it. There are all sorts of ideas behind that but my simple view on it is the abs DON'T work in isolation. Therefore "isolating" them has no value. I recommend different types of situps (weighted if necessary) and hanging knee or leg raises for the majority of you ab work. Some extra oblique work can be done but you don't need a huge amount.

Some people also believe in "stabilization work" done on those inflatable balls. I've tried that too but I don't really do it because I don't see it doing anything that all the deadlifting, squatting plus all the unilateral stuff I do doesn't take care of. That may have some merit for you since you're just starting out.

My basic preferences are:

*Weighted "roman chair" situps (with a good stretch but not overarchig the back)

*Standing situps with high weigthed pulley

*Hanging knee raises

*Cable side bends (and you can incorporate twists into the situps also.

*Other stuff for variety

But these are just MY preferences.

On the front page there is a Personal Journals section (under Members Section) to click on. You'll see those journals I mentioned fairl close to the top.

Last edited by EricT; 03-03-2007 at 11:04 AM.
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