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iron_worker 11-27-2007 02:22 PM

Trouble with Deads...
Well yesterday I went to do my regular B workout for rippetoe which was:

Squats: 220lbs - 3x5
Military Press: 120lbs - 3x5
Deadlifts: 125kg(275lbs) - 1x5

and some accessory stuff...

Anyways, I've done that deadlift weight before but we just came off a deload and worked our way back to this weight for deads so it should not have been that hard. However, on the last rep I got so out of shape that I really strained my lower back. I should have just stopped when I felt it comin apart but my ego kicked in and I kept lifting. Ugh. Well it hurts lots today and I'm just wondering why this weight would seem so heavy?

Is it cause my squat weight is starting to get up there (relative to where it was) as well? Are heavy squats and heavy deads just not a good thing to do on the same day?

I dont' want this to happen again, my back is killin me.

You can check out my workout in the journal section if you need more info.


Ross86 11-27-2007 02:59 PM

I think it really depends on the person...everybody is a little bit different. My only advice would be to try deads first next time since it's a heavier lift. It might be that you can't do both on the same day, but it's something you'll have to find out for yourself.

Good luck with the back. Don't hurt it worse the next time you lift. Hope it gets better soon.

Cradler 11-27-2007 03:57 PM

Heavy squats and heavy deads on the same day is doable, and is part of the Rippetoe workout, of course, but deadlifts are hard on the body, and after three sets of heavy squats I could see your form fading a bit. A few other things -

Are you taking any kind of pre-workout carbs with your shake? I don't know why it would only affect one rep but it could be that your workout ran a bit long and you started to crash. Just a thought.

Also, what's your form look like on deadlifts in general? I've had it happen that I did heavy squats with good form, went to do deads, and just couldn't maintain my usual form. So it could just be fatigue.

Good luck.

iron_worker 11-27-2007 07:50 PM

I always try to get a meal in before my workout. Usually about 45-60mins before my workout so it has time to settle so I dont' feel so bloated while I work out. I think it must have just been fatigue because 220 3x5 on squats is a PR for me at the moment. I could try doing deads first but then I feel squats would suffer.... I guess you gotta pick one? Or seperate them.

EricT 11-28-2007 08:17 AM

Didn't you have the deads day as a light squat day before? I thought that is what you were doing. There's going to come a point where you can't expect to do them both heavy on the same day at that sort of volume. You also did them after MP's which impact the entire body as well.

You know, Starr, whom so many people think their workouts are modelled after never prescribed deadlifts because he thought they weren't worth the injury potential. Course he was big on the OL type lifts and many people think they have a greater injury potential, but that's a topic for another discussion. I don't agree for a second that deadlfits are so damn dangerous but you gotta at least treat them with a proper amount of reverence.

But it's funny when people like Starr and others that are so reverred, respected, and successfull would completely dump a lift and then you see people doing routines that have in essense people like Starr as the foundation for the idea but they are not only doing heavy deads they are doing them after heavy squats at the same volume on the same day.

Maybe for a rank novice it wouldn't matter too much but you are not a rank novice. It's getting to the point where you better start showing deads some respect and give them their due if you don't want them to bite you in the ass. The fact is the world is not going to end if someone decides to prioritize deads for a day.

As far as you squats suffering...they will suffer more from having technical failure on deads due to fatigue. At the same time it is not like you are going to be able to continue loading the bar for squats thrice a week for very much longer if you are doing that at all and having one day that "suffers" or is even intentionally ligher is not going to hurt your squat progression in the long run. Only the short run.

Honestly if it were me I wouldn't ever have people doing deads and squats heavy/similar volume on the same day. Not if I weren't right there to watch them. And that's another point. You have a training partner, right? Part of the purpose of a training partner is to watch your back. You guys should pay attention to each other and be able to tell the other when it is time to back off. I don't know of course, but your partner may have been able to see a breakdown in technique before you could and stepped in.

I really think there is a big difference from what a qualified coach should prescribe when he can be right there watching and reviewing and what he should prescribe "for the masses". This is the very reason why many of them hesitate, and rightly so, to right programs for the masses. Because, as Ross, said, everybody is different.

So to some up all my speechifying :biglaugh:...You need to respect the deads.

iron_worker 11-30-2007 07:39 AM

Well! I got told. lol

I appreciate all your comments Eric, dont get me wrong.

We were going to switch to having deads only on light squat day. But as it stands it was just light squats every wednesday but deads would end up on monday one week and then wednesday the next. I was hoping we could hold out our routine until our next max day came around so as to hopefully squeeze the most benefit from it. However, it seems I pushed it too far.

I didn't go to the gym on wednesday cause I was having trouble even moving around properly. Its friday morning now and I think I'm going to go to the gym but mostly for stretching purposes and whatnot. My back feels much better but I definately dont' want it hurt again.

We are going to switch our routine right away to something like this:

P. Rows

Light Sqats
M. Press


Then we were going to have our accessories lined up in 2 different days that would alternate through the week. So essentially the Big three and rows and press stay the same the whole time. The accessory groups would alternate from once a week to twice a week every week since you'd do Accessory 1, Accessory 2, Acessory 1
and on the following week you'd do Accessory 2, Accessory 1, Acessory 2. If you follow me...

Anyways, as for my partner and watching my form, he did. I don't blame him cause he did say after my 4th rep which was starting to get a little loose, "Watch your form!" I should have known what that meant and just put it down but I tried for the last rep and the form was pretty much as bad as it gets. It was only my stupidity which I very much regret now.

I now have a much greater respect for deads. I think they are important and as such should be treated with the ultimate in care. This new workout routine will be great I think.

Thanks for paying attention Eric and saying whats on your mind. Your oppinion means alot cause I know that you know what you're talking about!

EricT 11-30-2007 11:43 AM

That sounds good, IW. And don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to cast blame on someone like your lifting buddy. A lot of times my comments are both specific and general, if you get my meaning. I've just noticed that people's main idea of having a lifting partner is about motivating each other. You know that whole thing. "You can do it. It's all you!". When, a lot of times that is the same thing as saying "Your form is completely gone, and you are close to injuring yourself but you can do it, it's all you!"

I've ran into this before and I've said it before. With deads you really want to avoid working past the point of fatigue, when form breaks down. This is why I hate the idea of ever doing them to "failure" as a matter of course and certainly never beyond failure. Realistically you're going to have days when you reach failure and also sometimes it is good to deadlift tired but a lot of pieces need to be in place before that. I think basically what I am saying is that all in all you want to step back from that line more often than you cross it.

That's one of my problems with this whole thing. The idea is that you will deadlift and squat heavy on the same day and so will build up a lot of strength and muscle. But that means that you will have a novice deadlifting TIRED without supervision. It's circular logic but imo and ime you need that "strength and muscle" built up before you start deadlfting tired in the first place. Not to mention the tensile strength of the connective tissues. At least it's only at 1x5 volume and that should be good to go for a while but people just need to be ready to step back when it feels right.

I don't think there was anything wrong with your logic. Trying to get the most out of it before you moved to lesser frequency or whatever. You do what you do and when that doesn't work you move on. Just hopefully we can avoid having a injury tell us when that time comes.

iron_worker 12-02-2007 07:37 AM

Well I thought I would report back. Its sunday today and my back is feeling much much better. I dont' really notice any discomfort anymore so I think come monday its time to hit the squat rack again. Yay!

I'll take er easy during warmup and just gage it from there. If it goes well then I'm back in, if it starts tightening up then I'll back off.

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