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Upper chest area.



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  #71  
Old 05-14-2010, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cr3beast View Post
Presses will make the muscle thicker, and flies will make them more defined.
WHAT?!?

Muscles get more "defined" the less fat they have around them.
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  #72  
Old 05-14-2010, 08:22 AM
mad matt mad matt is offline
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Originally Posted by cr3beast View Post
Ok so at the beginning of this thread,(before it became a pissing contest)...ChinPieceDave667 said you cant work your chest in "parts"...that is total bullshit. Yes, when you try to isolate a portion of you chest you still work the whole pec, however you work different fibers. Going with the logic of not being able to work "parts" of a muscle would be the same as saying, wide grip preacher curls and close grip preacher curls work the bicep the same way. However, wide grip increases the thickness(width) of the muscle while close grip increases the peak(height). So, I call bullshit.

If you wanna work upper-chest, do incline(30-40 degrees) dumbbell presses and flies. Presses will make the muscle thicker, and flies will make them more defined. Also, do cables. Start cable low, then raise it up, across your body ending level with your head and on the opposite side of the body from starting position, then slowly lower it back. that has been the most effective lift for me.

I know this question was posted a while back, but the poor knowledge of anatomy and how muscles work aggravates me. Good luck!
I call bs here, do you have evidence to back this up???

Without any question doing decline bp will work your upper chest far far more than incline...
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  #73  
Old 05-14-2010, 09:50 AM
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I would have to agree. I'm one of the "work the muscle as a whole" believers" but I've also never really tried bodybuilding either... more of a strength trainer.

I would say decline is alot more pecs than incline. I think it's probably more pec the further you decline and more shoulders the more you incline. Just my take.

IW
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  #74  
Old 05-14-2010, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cr3beast
Going with the logic of not being able to work "parts" of a muscle would be the same as saying, wide grip preacher curls and close grip preacher curls work the bicep the same way. However, wide grip increases the thickness(width) of the muscle while close grip increases the peak(height). So, I call bullshit.
That's your argument? Christ, pissing would prove more, I think we should go back to that. This is known as "begging the question", lol.
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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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  #75  
Old 05-14-2010, 12:14 PM
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Good old fallacies of the english language. Philosophy 102. lol

IW
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  #76  
Old 05-14-2010, 01:28 PM
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wow, I think I struck a nerve or two. Ok, so lets break these down.
1. Yes, a muscle will be more defined with less fat around, that's a given. However, the muscle fibers on the edge on the muscle(with pecs i mean where it meets the shoulder and the rectus abdominis) are forced to fire when the muscle is stretched and then contracted. So with flies, you stretch the edges of the muscle then contract, or bring the weight across your body. Muscles are build of fibers, fibers only grow when forced to work more than they are used to. Simple logic of anatomy.

2. I do have evidence that incline and cables being pulled up and across your body work upper pec more than lower or mid pec. Look a muscle striations. When it comes to the pec, the striations fan out. Striations are built of fibers and fascicles. They get longer in a stretch and shorter in a contraction. They can only contract in one direction, which is why you have a pectoralis major and minor, they have different directions of striation relative to each other. So, if you look at how the muscle works, and you move your arms, you will see that presses and flies at 30-40 degrees(any higher will be more shoulder than anything else) will cause the upper pec to fire more than lower and mid. With cable, the direction affects the portion of the muscle fired. Take your right arm, reach across your body at the waist and feel your right pec, then raise your arm to level with your head and the left side and feel the muscle.

3. Yes when you work a muscle, the bulk of the muscle will fire, I'm not arguing that. The more the decline the more pec isolation you will have, and the more incline the more shoulder you will add into the lift. However, the upper pec fibers will not need to strain as hard to lift with decline, you will use more mid, lower, serratus anterior and lats. Next time you do decline press, use 1 dumbbell and at full extension touch your pec. The lower pec will be tight, while the upper pec will feel softer.

4.Yes, I know that that could be considered "begging the question". However, I didn't talk about something different for my argument. I talked about muscle fibers and how they work different when altering a lift. Same thing, different muscle group. That doesn't change facts.

5. I learned fallacies in Philosophy 101...didn't want to not argue with you and cause you to feel left out. hahaha.

So, as i stated before, not being able to isolate upper, mid, and lower pec is total bullshit. And as always, Good luck!
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  #77  
Old 05-14-2010, 03:24 PM
P4noz P4noz is offline
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In reply to each numbers in you last post:
1. Going with simple anatomy you were referring to.. why would the same motion of the humerus would result to a different promotion of muscle activity if muscle fibers are either fully promoted or not. Flies concentrates the load on the chest since the triceps are not helping with the lift.

2. and 3. Where is the evidence? I don't see any citations of peer-reviewed articles. Yes, muscle do stretch and contract from the insertion and origins points. But, when I do a 'one arm' press from incline, flat and decline, I feel the same contraction from my chest area .The only way I was able to differentiate was with significantly lower weight.


4. Skipped, not involved in this one

5. If I read correctly, you wanted to argue (''didn't want to not argue'')

If I resume the above, it is not BS. Genetics is the biggest factor, lift heavy on any of these exercise and the chest will certainly be worked all across.
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  #78  
Old 05-14-2010, 04:40 PM
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P4noz, I understand what you are saying, but I think you may be missing some factors.

1. Yes, with flies you can't do as much weight because the triceps are not involved. However, the humerus doesn't move the same with presses as it does with flies. To prove this, bend your elbows like you would do a press, then move your arms like you are doing flies. The motion, direction, angle all change. Its subtle, but there is a definite change. That's the second biggest factor in the difference between flies and press.(the first being triceps not being involved as much in flies)

2 and 3. Quoting other people proves nothing. I could quote people all day about the subject, but I would get the argument back of "thats their opinion, and i feel they are wrong". So, its pointless to do so. The reason you feel it more with lower weight is the other fibers are not used as much because you don't need to compensate to lift the weight. Don't you think that if you feel a difference at lower weight, that it would mean that there is a difference. Just because the bulk of the muscle is forced to fire along with the focused portion doesn't mean you aren't hitting the focused portion harder than with other lifts, it just means that along with causing it to work harder(which results in growth) you are using surrounding fibers to help move the weight. Its logic.

4. I too shall skip since there is nothing to talk about.

5. Yes and no. I didn't want to argue with him, because all he did was comment on another persons argument. However I didn't want him to feel left out, since I argued with everyone else, so I argued with him. It sounds redundant, but it is technically correct....confusing...but correct.

Now to comment on your final thoughts. Genetics does play a large role in body building and muscle growth. However, we are not bound by our genetics, (unless we have a muscle deterioration disease or something). You just may have to work a lot harder for it. Some guys just seem to explode, others not so much, but given enough time and work everyone can achieve a large, muscular physique. That's why there are sites like this with people giving various tips and tricks for people to try to see what works best for them.
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  #79  
Old 05-14-2010, 06:11 PM
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Nevermind...this is a retarded argument. Everybody should have a decent amount of variation in their training. That should take care of the entire chest.....
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  #80  
Old 05-14-2010, 06:48 PM
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we were looking for quotes from professionals who did "research." pub med etc.
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