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Ross86 · #1 09-11-2007, 03:22 PM

Ok, so I've been wondering about this since I bought my bottle of Anabolic Switch. It's the mix with a bunch of different creatines and it doesn't have much sugar in it, so I was wondering how effective the delivery is. (I got it for $13) I've noticed a definite difference with the Anabolic Switch (even tho I'm not a fan of MRI), so I don't know what I'll doing anything different. I remembered hearing about mixing creatine with juice, but I read in a book that it's not good to mix with juice because the acidity will convert the creatine to creatinine...so I'm doing a little research and this is what I have found:

Quote:

Why taking it with juice is not the answer:

The first users of creatine realized early on that insulin was needed to create an environment capable of pushing creatine into the muscle. It makes sense, because all nutrients, especially the all important protein, need insulin to have optimal effect. Taking your protein with a simple sugar created an insulin spike making it more efficient, and that was the plan with creatine. So they decided to take it with juice. The juice of choice was grape because it contained the most fructose, the sugar present in all fruit juices. Fructose was a good choice because it was moderately glycemic (glycemic index refers to the ability of a sugar to form glucose and ultimately glycogen, the prime storage of energy in the body) and easy to mix with the creatine. Unfortunately fructose doesn't cause a long enough insulin-spike to remain anabolic until the time the creatine becomes available to the muscle (roughly 20-30 minutes after intake). On top of that they consumed large amounts of juice, and all that free fructose easily transformed to fat storage. Not exactly what they were hoping for.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catcrea.htm

Quote:

Creatine monohydrate dissolves easily in liquids. As with most powders, it dissolves faster and more completely in warm and hot fluids, so heating the liquid will leave less creatine on the bottom and sides of the glass. If you have a microwave, heat the liquid for about a minute. Then add the creatine and stir until the powder is dissolved.

Some liquids are better than others for creatine consumption. Glucose polymer drinks or those with dextrose or maltodextrin are good choices. This is because the shuttle system used to transport creatine into the muscle fibers involves insulin, and these forms of "simple" sugars activate this mechanism quickly. Fruit juices are also good options. Although juices contain fructose, a sugar that is absorbed somewhat slower than glucose and dextrose, juices are assimilated relatively quickly, so they are perfectly acceptable as creatine vehicles. They may be more convenient, too. You could also mix your creatine with a combination protein/carbohydrate drink, although the protein content of the drink will slow the assimilation of the creatine compared to glucose or fructose alone.

Athletes have sometimes been told to avoid mixing citrus juices such as orange juice with creatine. The reason given is that the acidity in these juices boosts the production of creatinine, which is the waste product of creatine metabolism. However, creatinine is formed in the muscles, not in a glass. Moreover, the citric acid in orange and grapefruit juices is insignificant compared to the concentrated hydrochloric acid found in the stomach. If creatine can make it through the stomach and into the body, a little bit of OJ won't hurt. Then again, most people don't drink orange juice warm, but if you enjoy it that way, don't worry about the acidity.

On the other hand, one study by Vandenberghe shows that the benefits of creatine are counteracted when it is consumed with large amounts of caffeine (the equivalent of five cups of coffee). The study found that while caffeine did not reduce the increase in creatine-phosphate levels within the muscle fibers, dynamic torque production in caffeine/creatine users was 10 to 20 percent lower than in test subjects who took creatine alone. In fact, torque production for the caffeine/creatine users was no different than the placebo group. Based on this research, you should stay away from high-potency caffeine pills. Mixing creatine in caffeinated drinks, at least according to this study, may also reduce or even neutralize the performance-enhancing effects of this nutrient in the short term. It's better to take your creatine with a glucose- or fructose-based drink that will stimulate your insulin response and facilitate the uptake of creatine into the muscle fibers.

The Best Time to Take Creatine
Creatine remains in the blood stream for a period of one to 1 1/2 hours. This is the window of opportunity that muscles have to draw creatine from the surrounding blood vessels and store it in their cells. If these cells are full of creatine, and the brain, heart and testes have all of the creatine they need, the excess will eventually be processed to creatinine and excreted.

http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=1188&xcntr=4

Some people take their creatine in water with sugar, I read. But the insulin spike would still take place before the creatine arrives in the muscle. I read another guy's testimony that pills or capsules were the best because they break apart after going through the stomach. This isn't true...it's the acid in the stomach that breaks them apart.

My theory on the best time to take creatine would be an hour before my workout with water. And to follow the creatine 30 minutes later with a glass of grape juice.

What are your thoughts?

Pitysister · #2 09-11-2007, 06:17 PM

interesting stuff....i take mine with grape juice an hour before....would be good to know when/what is optimal....

Ross86 · #3 09-11-2007, 06:54 PM

yeah, definitely... I researched stuff for an hour before I got tired of it and those two articles summed up the key points. I was hoping someone on here could fill in the gaps.

The caffeine part surprised me...I don't normally drink any, but a lot of people have energy drinks right before their workouts.

Here is some more stuff that I just found...Sorry this is a kind of random post. These are just questions about creatine that I've had over the years and I thought that other people might have the same questions.

Quote:

Here is our advice - take the powder about 1 hour before your workout. Here is our reasoning...

It can take about 1 hour for the creatine to be absorbed into the bloodstream - and from that point you have about 1.5 hours to use the creatine or lose it. So, let's say you workout at 10am - here is our logic. At 9am you take the creatine powder. By 10am the creatine is in the blood stream. Your muscles are probably mostly saturated with creatine from the supplement you took the day before. So, some of the creatine you took at 9am may be absorbed into the muscles - but the rest is still in the blood. At 10am you start working out and depleting the creatine in your muscles. Your muscles then replenish their creatine supply from the creatine in the blood stream. Your workout ends at 11am (you really should not workout more than 1 hour - but that is a topic for a different day). Remember, you took creatine at 9am - but it was not absorbed into the blood stream until 10am. This means it will stay there until 11:30am (1.5 hours). So, now you have another 1/2 hour where your muscles can replenish their creatine supply if depleted. In a way you are getting the best of all worlds - you have creatine available before, during and after your workout.

You will hear other theories - but that is what we have found to be most effective. Since creatine supplies us with energy when working out - it is important we have creatine available during our workout. Creatine as a recovery agent is much less clear, so taking it after a workout to help with recovery is not proven.

Quote:

Many people believe that you need to take creatine everyday to keep your creatine levels topped off. We do not see the research that proves this to be true. If you are taking creatine for the muscular boost in energy, that taking it just on workout days should be fine.

http://www.absolute-creatine.com/9.htm

Some more food for thought... I think that the second part about taking it on off days or workout days pertains more to CEE since it is more readily absorbed.

Ross86 · #4 09-11-2007, 09:00 PM

Can't sleep so I'm looking up some more stuff regarding caffeine. One of the studies that I read about regarding the caffeine/creatine mix said that caffeine could hinder the effects of creatine. They gave the subjects 5mg of caffeine per kg of body weight...that is a LOT. And another study said that caffeine hindered the effects of creatine, but that the muscles still absorbed creatine from the blood just as well. wtf? Decide for yourself...

EricT · #5 09-12-2007, 06:30 AM

Just real quick and I'll read over the whole thread later:

I've noticed some of the quotes saying and hour this and that. It doesn't really work that way.

If you were to take 5 grams of creatine in solution it will basically start entering the blood stream very quickly. Depending of course on having enough water and stuff like that. It doesn't take an hour to be "available". Things don't show up dumped all at once into your bloodstream like a floodgate opened up. It will take around 30 minutes on average to reach a PEAK level in the bloodstream and then it will start going down. If you waited an hour it would be getting close to the starting point again although you can't be precise about how long the process takes. If it didn't enter the muscles then it was converted to creatinine, if I'm not mistaken.

So my immediate thoughts are that if you took the creatine first and then waited 30 minutes later to take some carbs, by the time the carbs started hitting the bloodstream and you get an insulin response the creatine levels have already (potentially at least) reached their peak and are well on their way to returing to normal. So I wouldn't recommend that.

The simplest thing to do is to take some creatine both pre and post with your pre and post nutrition regimen. You don't have to worry about all that timing and bloodstream dooda.

I don't think there is any real proof that CEE is more readily absorbed. In fact there is no "proof" of any kind. If you have achieved saturation levels in your muscles, for which it would behoove you to take it everyday for a while then it shouldn't matter whether it's mono or CEE if you only want to take it on workout days.

Ross86 · #6 09-12-2007, 11:03 AM

That makes a lot of sense. Can't wait for you to read over it more. It's so hard to decipher stuff that was written by other people because they write their opinions as facts. Thanks for clearing things up somewhat.

EricT · #7 09-12-2007, 01:08 PM

^^^Yeah, I know it's tought as shit to separate the wheat from the chaff. Half the time they'll actually include a bunch of references to back up their "opinion" but then you have to read all those to find out they don't even apply or say something completely different, lol.

I'll get on it and offer my "rebuttal" to anything I notice warrants it and try to be as factual as possible (without referencing everything I say

) but you know the thing is you might be able to very scientific about what creatine does when you take it but how to use it can still be very open to "opinion".

This one is way off:

Quote:

Why taking it with juice is not the answer:

The first users of creatine realized early on that insulin was needed to create an environment capable of pushing creatine into the muscle. It makes sense, because all nutrients, especially the all important protein, need insulin to have optimal effect. Taking your protein with a simple sugar created an insulin spike making it more efficient, and that was the plan with creatine. So they decided to take it with juice. The juice of choice was grape because it contained the most fructose, the sugar present in all fruit juices. Fructose was a good choice because it was moderately glycemic (glycemic index refers to the ability of a sugar to form glucose and ultimately glycogen, the prime storage of energy in the body) and easy to mix with the creatine. Unfortunately fructose doesn't cause a long enough insulin-spike to remain anabolic until the time the creatine becomes available to the muscle (roughly 20-30 minutes after intake). On top of that they consumed large amounts of juice, and all that free fructose easily transformed to fat storage. Not exactly what they were hoping for.

First off fructose is NOT a good choice for creatine. Fructose needs to go to the liver where it is used to make liver glycogen to be released as glucose later on as needed. Second, no fruit is just fructose. They all contain mixtures of things like fructose, sucrose, and dextrose. The reason grape juice was used is because unlike many other common fruits it is relatively abundant in DEXTROSE. Dextrose being a quick way to get glucose into the blood and thus that insulin which suppsedly is needed to help shuttle creatine into the muscles. All "big cat" would have needed was a simple google search to find that out. Jeez.

Another little thing is that fructose in fruit is not really that much fructose and is not easily transferred to fat storage. That's one of those anti-fruit things based on mistaken belief about high amounts of fructose in the diet from fruit. What it really comes from is studies about unaturally high levels of fructose coming from things like high fructose corn syrup (soda and all sorts of other things) which basically can mess up people's metabolism leading to insulin resistance so on and so forth. Fruit contains relatively small amounts of fructose compared to these studies I'm talking about.

P.S. I don't want to get into a bunch of stuff about cutting and fruit. My basic point is that a buch of glucose has more potential to be easily transferred to fat storage than some fructose from fruit.

EricT · #8 09-12-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Creatine monohydrate dissolves easily in liquids. As with most powders, it dissolves faster and more completely in warm and hot fluids, so heating the liquid will leave less creatine on the bottom and sides of the glass. If you have a microwave, heat the liquid for about a minute. Then add the creatine and stir until the powder is dissolved.

Creatine doesn't dissolve in liquids. It mixes in suspension.

EricT · #9 09-12-2007, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Some liquids are better than others for creatine consumption. Glucose polymer drinks or those with dextrose or maltodextrin are good choices. This is because the shuttle system used to transport creatine into the muscle fibers involves insulin, and these forms of "simple" sugars activate this mechanism quickly. Fruit juices are also good options. Although juices contain fructose, a sugar that is absorbed somewhat slower than glucose and dextrose, juices are assimilated relatively quickly, so they are perfectly acceptable as creatine vehicles. They may be more convenient, too. You could also mix your creatine with a combination protein/carbohydrate drink, although the protein content of the drink will slow the assimilation of the creatine compared to glucose or fructose alone.

Athletes have sometimes been told to avoid mixing citrus juices such as orange juice with creatine. The reason given is that the acidity in these juices boosts the production of creatinine, which is the waste product of creatine metabolism. However, creatinine is formed in the muscles, not in a glass. Moreover, the citric acid in orange and grapefruit juices is insignificant compared to the concentrated hydrochloric acid found in the stomach. If creatine can make it through the stomach and into the body, a little bit of OJ won't hurt. Then again, most people don't drink orange juice warm, but if you enjoy it that way, don't worry about the acidity.

On the other hand, one study by Vandenberghe shows that the benefits of creatine are counteracted when it is consumed with large amounts of caffeine (the equivalent of five cups of coffee). The study found that while caffeine did not reduce the increase in creatine-phosphate levels within the muscle fibers, dynamic torque production in caffeine/creatine users was 10 to 20 percent lower than in test subjects who took creatine alone. In fact, torque production for the caffeine/creatine users was no different than the placebo group. Based on this research, you should stay away from high-potency caffeine pills. Mixing creatine in caffeinated drinks, at least according to this study, may also reduce or even neutralize the performance-enhancing effects of this nutrient in the short term. It's better to take your creatine with a glucose- or fructose-based drink that will stimulate your insulin response and facilitate the uptake of creatine into the muscle fibers.

The Best Time to Take Creatine
Creatine remains in the blood stream for a period of one to 1 1/2 hours. This is the window of opportunity that muscles have to draw creatine from the surrounding blood vessels and store it in their cells. If these cells are full of creatine, and the brain, heart and testes have all of the creatine they need, the excess will eventually be processed to creatinine and excreted.

Just a few nitpicky things. Glucose and dextrose are the same thing as far as the body is concerned. I agree that fruit juices are good choices. It is wrong that protein as a whole slows creatine absorption. Solid food protein yes. Whey seems to help creatine absorption. A combination carboydrate/protein drink with creatine is actually a VERY good way to get creatine in.

Agree totally about the acidic fruit juice thing being over hyped. Orange juice is nothing compared to your stomach.

I wouldn't worry about the caffeine too much unless you consume creatine with huge amounts of it. They were talking about at least 450 mgs of it.

It's the creatine in your MUSCLES that help you not the creatine in your bloodstream. If you take creatine steadily your muscles will basically be "topped off" all the time so you don't have to worry about all that timing thing like the last paragraph says.

EricT · #10 09-12-2007, 01:47 PM

Like I was saying fruit juice is a good choice but really not the best choice. Basically because what big cat was saying about needing huge amounts of it. But that has nothing much to do with fructose in grape juice it's simply because you need a lot of carbs (glucose) period. It's easier to get it from an glucose polymer drink or something like that.

Here's something that goes into that and the thing I was saying about protein and carbs together. I'm not guaranteeig that any of it's the final answer or even that the amount of carbs it talks about needing is really necessary. Theres some stuff which I've read before worth considering though.

Quote:

The Creatine-Insulin Dilemma

by Alfredo Franco-Obregón, PhD

Creatine is, by no means, new to this world. Creatine is, and always has been, a natural constituent of skeletal muscle. Humankind simply needed to be made aware of its existence. Amazingly, creatine was first identified nearly two centuries ago! In the early 1800s, the French scientist and philosopher, Michel-Eugène Chevreul, isolated a novel agent from skeletal muscle that he later named creatine for kreas, the Greek word for flesh (1). A few years later (1847), a German scientist named Justus von Liebig observed that maintaining foxes in captivity decreased their muscular creatine content (2). Postulating that physical activity increases creatine uptake by skeletal muscle, Liebig advanced the hypothesis that muscles utilize certain nitrogen containing molecules for energy. These nitrogenous molecules, otherwise known as amino acids, include creatine. Intriguingly, as an extension of his findings, Liebig later lent his name to a commercial extract of meat, which he asserted would help the body perform extra "work". In fact, "Liebig's Fleisch Extrakt" could quite reasonably be considered the original creatine supplement (complete with marketing plan). Near the turn of the last century the first studies examining the effects of creatine feeding were conducted where it was noticed that not all the creatine fed to animals could be recovered in the urine. Soon afterwards, Otto Folin and W. Dennis (1912-1914) of Harvard University (Boston) unequivocally corroborated by that the body’s musculature retains the greater part of any ingested creatine. Therefore, nearly one century ago scientists had already come full circle, from discovering that skeletal muscle is the richest natural source of creatine to the largest sink for dietary creatine in the body. Nevertheless, up to quite recently, the manner in which to best promote creatine absorption by skeletal muscle remained largely elusive. In this respect, a huge leap forward was made with the finding that insulin assists in the absorption of creatine into skeletal muscle. And, although this effect was previously hinted at in animal studies, the studies that first clearly showed this effect in humans were conducted only a few years ago (3,4). These human studies used glucose to stimulate the production of insulin, the same agent used by the body for this same purpose.

Following a meal our blood glucose levels rise, which then serves as the signal for the release of insulin from the pancreas. Insulin, in turn, enables the cells of our body to take up nutrients, principally glucose, but also amino acids, from the blood stream. Creatine, due to its structural likeness to amino acids, is also transported into the cell with the assistance of insulin, although via a different transport pathway. In this respect, insulin sets the stage for muscle growth (aka, anabolism) by making available to the cell the basic substrates for the production of new muscle tissues. The problem with the original studies examining insulin-mediated creatine uptake in humans, however, was that the amounts of glucose required to evoke a strong enough release of insulin were exorbitant; nearly 20 grams of glucose for each gram of creatine consumed and close to the limit of palatability for most individuals. Furthermore, this amount of glucose, if consumed on a regular basis, could lead to a state of insulin-resistance, which is the path to the development of type II diabetes. In other words, cells become immune to the presence of insulin if constantly bombarded by it, which, in turn, diminishes the uptake of essential nutrients into muscle cells and increases the need for insulin to stimulate muscle growth. Furthermore, since fats cells are the last to become resistant to the effects of insulin, the initial stages of insulin-resistance causes our fat reserves to swell and our muscle mass to shrivel up. Therefore, although these results were promising, they were far from being a complete solution.

Since then, there has been a search for agents that might effectively release insulin into the blood stream (for the purpose of creatine adsorption) without adversely influencing insulin-sensitivity. Many creatine manufacturers have consequently taken to adding a variety of insulin-agonists to their products in hopes of getting around the insulin-dilemma.

These “insulinotropic” strategies are aimed at either enhancing the release of insulin from the pancreas or augmenting the effects of upon the cell in order to increase transport rates of creatine into skeletal muscle. The agents often used for this purpose include chromium picolinate, alpha-lipoic acid, 4-hydroxyisoleucine, and the amino acids, taurine, L-arginine, NO-releasers, and L-carnitine. These days it is quite common to find one, or more, of these agents in many creatine products. Unfortunately, with the exception of alpha-lipoic acid (5), none of these agents have been specifically shown in scientific studies to potentiate the uptake of creatine into the cell. This in time may come, but for the moment, it’s still too early to say whether these other agents actually promote creatine absorption by muscle cells.

There’s a safer, and much more reliable, method of promoting insulin release that has been overlooked by many creatine manufacturers. Ignored, in fact, simply because it isn’t sexy enough to appear innovative and, consequently, will not serve to jack up the price of the product; the agenda of most creatine manufacturers. By now, the ability of glucose to release insulin is without dispute. Ten years ago, however, a study showed that protein greatly potentiates the ability of glucose to release insulin into the blood stream from the pancreas (6). The effect of protein was so powerful that half the amount of carbohydrates could be used to elicit the same amount of insulin release.

What remained to be shown was whether the combination of carbohydrates and protein is equally as effective at promoting creatine absorption by skeletal muscle. This awaited study finally appeared in 2000 and showed that protein in combination with simple carbohydrates augments creatine absorption by skeletal muscle to a similar extent as high doses of carbohydrates (7). In this study experimental subjects were given one of four different supplement combinations 30 minutes after ingesting creatine, 5 grams of glucose (placebo), 50 grams of protein and 47 grams of glucose (PRO-CHO), 96 grams of glucose (Hi-CHO), or 50 grams of glucose (Lo-CHO). The results were clear, PRO-CHO and Hi-CHO were equally effective at promoting creatine absorption, which were both greater (~10-25%) than either Lo-CHO and placebo. Again, adding protein reduced the glucose requirement by half!

Another advantage of adding glucose to your creatine is that it aids in the replenishment of your glycogen reserves following exercise. This effect arises from the ability of insulin’s to increase the number of glucose transporters (GLUT 4) expressed on the cell surface. GLUT 4 is the principal protein complex responsible for transporting glucose into the cell once stimulated by insulin. And, since exercise makes the cells of our body more sensitive to the effects of insulin, exercise likewise increases the expression of GLUT 4. On the other hand, inactivity, either by choice or because of injury, reduces GLUT 4 expression.

Along these lines, a recent study has shown that creatine protects against the loss of GLUT 4 during limb immobilization and, furthermore, accentuates the increased expression of GLUT 4 during subsequent rehabilitation (8). Not surprisingly, the creatine and glucose treated subjects exhibited larger muscle glycogen (and creatine) reserves during rehabilitation.

Finally, a new study just appeared indicating that protein exerts a similar effect on GLUT 4 expression, but without adversely affecting insulin-sensitivity (9). Specifically, this study compared the effects of creatine supplementation with glucose or glucose plus protein during the rehabilitation of a previously immobilized limb. The authors of this study found that retraining (6 weeks) a previously immobilized limb (2 weeks placed in a cast) in conjunction with a post-exercise creatine, protein and glucose meal increased GLUT 4 expression and muscle glycogen content to the same extent as a creatine and glucose meal. Most importantly, since the protein meal contained less than one third the amount of glucose (20 grams versus 70 grams!), insulin sensitivity was improved as a result.

Furthermore, the effect on glycogen storage was specific for the exercised limb. That is, the un-exercised limb exhibited no change in GLUT 4 expression or muscle glycogen content. This result clearly indicates that simply upplementing with creatine, irrespective of the manner in which it is done, in the absence of exercise is a fruitless endeavor.

The solution seems clear. Adding protein to your creatine and carbohydrate mix will promote muscle creatine uptake (and glycogen synthesis) WITHOUT adversely affecting the sensitivity of your cells to insulin.

Scientific References

1. Chevreul, X. (1835) Sur la composition chimique du bouillon de viandes. J. Pharm. Sci. Accessoires Volume 21: pages 231-242.

2. Balsom, P. D., Soderlund, K. and Ekblom, B. (1994) Creatine in humans with special reference to creatine supplementation. Sports Medicine Volume 18: pages 268-280.

3. Green, A. L., Simpson, E. J., Littlewood, J. J., MacDonald, I. A., and Greenhaff, P. L. (1996). Carbohydrate ingestion augments creatine retention during creatine feedings in humans. Acta Physiol Scand Volume 158: pages 195-202.

4. Steenge, G. R., Lambourne, J., Casey, A., MacDonald, I. A., and Greenhaff, P. L. (1998). Stimulatory effect of insulin on creatine accumulation in human skeletal muscle. American Journal of Physiology Volume 275: pages E-974-E979.

5. Burke, D. G. Chilibeck P. D., Parise G., Tarnopolsky M. A., and Candow D. G., (2003). Effect of alpha-lipoic acid combined with creatine monohydrate on human skeletal muscle creatine and phosphagen concentration. International Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism Volume 13(3): pages 294-302.

6. Chandler, R. M., Byrne, H. K., Patterson, J. G., and Ivy, J. L. (1994). Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 76(2): pages 839-845.

7. Steenge, G. R., Simpson, J., and Greenhaff, P. L. (2000). Protein- and carbohydrate-induced augmentation of whole body creatine retention in humans. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 89: pages 1165-1171.

8. Op’t Eijnde, B., Urso, B., Richter, E. A., Greenhaff, P. L., and Hespel, P. (2001). Effect of oral creatine supplementation on human muscle GLUT4 protein content after immobilization. Diabetes Volume 50: pages 18-23.

9. Derave, W. Op’t Eijnde, B., Verbessem, P., Ramaekers, M., Van Leemputte, M. Richter, E. A., and Hespel, P. (2003). Combined creatine and protein supplementation in conjunction with resistance training promotes muscle GLUT-4 content and glucose tolerance in humans. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 94: pages 1910–1916.

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When to take creatine & with what?